What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Post Reply
thang
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:44 pm

Some says nama is
1. Phassa 2. Vedana 3. Sanna 4. Sankhara 5. Vinnana
Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

santa100
Posts: 3121
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:42 pm

thang wrote:Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
How the Buddha defined it:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.

thang
Posts: 95
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by thang » Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:42 pm
How the Buddha defined it:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.
Yes. We have to observe the blessed one's statement.
So Vinnana/Citta/Mano does not seem like a part of Nama. Then what is it?
Last edited by thang on Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Bhikkhus, whatever the Tathāgata speaks, utters, or expounds
in the interval between
the night when he awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment
and the night when he attains final nibbāna,
all that is just so and not otherwise"
;

santa100
Posts: 3121
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 12:23 am

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 pm
So Vinnana/Citta/Mano does not seem like a part of NamaRupa. Then what is it?
It's what conditions Nama. Ven. Bodhi's note in "Connected Discourses":
It should be noted that in the Nikāyas, nāmarūpa does not include consciousness (viññāṇa). Consciousness is its condition, and the two are mutually dependent, like two sheaves of reeds leaning one against the other (II 114,17–19). Consciousness can operate only in dependence on a physical body (rūpa) and in conjunction with its constellation of concomitants (nāma); conversely, only when consciousness is present can a compound of material elements function as a sentient body and the mental concomitants participate in cognition.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2988
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:34 am

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 pm
So Vinnana/Citta/Mano does not seem like a part of Nama. Then what is it?
Mano appears related to intention (cetana) thus appears to be part of nama. Also, mano is the mind "sense organ" for mind-contact, thus appears to be included in nama. The most famous verse where mano & intention/kamma are related is Dhp 1:
Mind (mano) precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
:candle:
thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:44 pm
Some says nama is 1. Phassa 2. Vedana 3. Sanna 4. Sankhara 5. Vinnana
The above is contrary to the Buddha and contrary to the emphasis upon "attention" ("manasikara"). When dhammas are listed, the last dhamma is often the most important; with the prior dhammas being causal factors leading to the last dhamma.
thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:55 pm
Then what is it?
In my experience, unexpectedly, nama is best summarised as Buddhaghosa did, namely, to mean "bent" or "inclination" ("namati"). "Ignorance and sankhara" are internal and they bend the mind to incline to pursue external sense experiences via the sense bases. In other words, "ignorance and sankhara" condition the mind to have "inappropriate attention" ("ayonso manasikara").

I suggest to read MN 19, how the Buddha-To-Be prevented his mind (nama) from inclining (namati) with the power of the ignorant sankhara.
The Blessed One said, "Monks, before my self-awakening, when I was still just an unawakened Bodhisatta... as I remained thus heedful, ardent & resolute, thinking imbued with sensuality arose in me. I discerned that 'Thinking imbued with sensuality has arisen in me; and that leads to my own affliction or to the affliction of others or to the affliction of both. It obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding.' As I noticed that it leads to my own affliction, it subsided. As I noticed that it leads to the affliction of others... to the affliction of both... it obstructs discernment, promotes vexation, & does not lead to Unbinding, it subsided. Whenever thinking imbued with sensuality had arisen, I simply abandoned it, dispelled it, wiped it out of existence.

Whatever a monk keeps pursuing with his thinking & pondering, that becomes the inclination (nati) of his mind. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with sensuality, abandoning thinking imbued with renunciation, his mind is bent (namati) by that thinking [sankhara] imbued with [ignorance asava of] sensuality. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with ill will, abandoning thinking imbued with non-ill will, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with ill will. If a monk keeps pursuing thinking imbued with harmfulness, abandoning thinking imbued with harmlessness, his mind is bent by that thinking imbued with harmfulness.

MN 19

User avatar
salayatananirodha
Posts: 219
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2018 1:34 am

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:30 am

feeling
perception
intention
contact
attention
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by Pondera » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:07 am

santa100 wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 11:42 pm
thang wrote:Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
How the Buddha defined it:
SN 12.2 wrote:And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form. Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.
As a side note: isn’t this recipe for “form” an indication of what we have in ”rupa” jhana? (Pushing my own philosophy here :))
Four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, equanimity and peacehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3qI6G ... sp=sharing

SarathW
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:00 am

Does Buddha have Nama-Rupa?
Does that mean he had Vinnana?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
Posts: 3121
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 » Fri Sep 21, 2018 1:11 pm

Pondera wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:07 am
As a side note: isn’t this recipe for “form” an indication of what we have in ”rupa” jhana? (Pushing my own philosophy here :))
I think what rupa jhana means is that one relies on a "form" object for their meditation objects, like some kasinas or the breaths or the body, etc.; as opposed to arupa jhanas which use space or nothingness as meditation objects.
SarathW wrote:Does Buddha have Nama-Rupa?
Does that mean he had Vinnana?
Before His PariNibbana? of course. All arahants while still living still have the five aggregates. It's not like after enlightenment they all turn into empty air without a body, feeling, perception, volition, and consciousness. They just don't cling to them with "I", "mine", or "myself" notions.

SarathW
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:22 pm

Before His PariNibbana? of course.
Then what is meant by Nirodha?
============

Reverse Order

With the complete eradication and cessation of ignorance, reaction (conditioning) ceases;
with the cessation of reaction (conditioning), consciousness ceases;
with the cessation of consciousness, mind-body cease;
with the cessation of mind-body, the six senses cease;
with the cessation of the six senses, contact ceases;
with the cessation of contact, seansation ceases;
with the cessation of sensation, craving and aversion cease;
with the cessation of craving and aversion, clinging ceases;
with the cessation of clinging, the process of becoming ceases;
with the cessation of the process of becoming, birth ceases;
with the cessation of birth, ageing and death cease, together
with sorrow, lamentation, physical and mental sufferings and tribulations.

http://www.buddhanet.net/bvk_study/bvk212b.htm

Further discussion
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=32449
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2988
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:28 pm

SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:22 pm
Then what is meant by Nirodha?
Try to say on topic. If it is not known what "nama" is then what is the point of asking the above question?

SarathW
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW » Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:33 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:28 pm
SarathW wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:22 pm
Then what is meant by Nirodha?
Try to say on topic. If it is not known what "nama" is then what is the point of asking the above question?
I think I am in staying in the topic.
I am trying to understand what Nama means.
If we can find what is meant by nama-rupa Nirodha we can get close to the answer in OP.
:shrug:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2988
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:56 am

thang wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:44 pm
Some says nama is
1. Phassa 2. Vedana 3. Sanna 4. Sankhara 5. Vinnana
Venearable Sariputta says nama is
1. Vedana 2. sanna 3. Cetana 4. Phassa 5. Manasikara
Often I start a topic question on this forum and, when I receive answers, I respectfully thank the members who kindly answer my questions. I answered your questions on this topic but you have not replied. Is thanking others against Buddhist practise? :shrug:

SarathW
Posts: 10158
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:24 pm

Is thanking others against Buddhist practise? :shrug:
Buddhist do not thank monks but say "Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu"
Actually, I do not know the meaning of this.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
Posts: 3121
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: What really are the five factors of Nama ?

Post by santa100 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:41 pm

Ven. Yuttadhammo's explanation here

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests