Information about Abhidhamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
TRobinson465
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by TRobinson465 »

robertk wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:19 am
Scholars, however, generally date the Abhidhamma works to originating some time around the third century BCE, 100 to 200 years after the death of the Buddha. . The earliest texts of the Pali Canon have no mention of (the texts of) the Abhidhamma Pitaka.[13]\
And these scholars are thought to be more reliable than the ancient monks. They dig a deep hole and their disciples are all too willing to jump in it.

So...These scholars seem unaware that various classifications exist . It is true that mostly Abhidhamma is classified as Pitaka, but also it is classified under Khuddhaka, and also under Veyyakarana
The Attahasalini (expositor) p. 32:

"Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas" p35 "thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya clasification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units"


It is certainly mentioned in other sections of the Tipitaka.
Majjhima Nikaya
Mahagosingha sutta
"
the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma"

Vinaya pitaka
"If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -'pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya' there is no offense"
So according to Wiki scholars a hundred or two hundred years after the Buddha the sangha got together and decided that there needs to be more than a Dvipitaka. How did it work?

"Hey fellows, I don't like having only 2 pitakas, let's have a Tipitika, we should add in an extra Pitaka"
"We can pretend it was recited at the first council"


"But venerable sir, already there has been schisms, how would we get other sects to agree to add this?"
"oh no problem, send a messenger and tell them they can make up their own Abhidhamma. As long as they at least agree to say that it was recited at the first council"
"you are wise, venerable sir"

A dissenting voice: "but sir , slandering the Buddha is a serious offense"

"The Buddha is long gone, we can do and say as we wish. There are only tens of thousands of Theravada bhikkhus and Bhikkhunis - including thousands of arahats - at this time in India. It should be easy to get their consent to slipping in this extra Pitaka"
"I just hope a few thousand years from now scholars don't pick up on our little game".
Good point. Seems like a lot of work to add an entire section for no apparent reason.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

justindesilva
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by justindesilva »

EternalHindu wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:08 am
Hii,
What is Exactly Abhidhamma?
Abhidharma or Abhidhamma are ancient Buddhist texts which contain detailed analytic reworkings of doctrinal material appearing in the Buddhist sutras, according to schematic classifications.
I am flortunate a book " Guide througe the abidamma pitaka " Written by Nyanathilika thero who lived at Galduwa Aranya ( Galle Sri lanka). It explains details from abidamma pitaka. ( 1st edition in1938).
If one can find this book , it could be quite useful.

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robertk
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by robertk »

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:09 am
[

I am flortunate a book " Guide througe the abidamma pitaka " Written by Nyanathilika thero who lived at Galduwa Aranya ( Galle Sri lanka). It explains details from abidamma pitaka. ( 1st edition in1938).
If one can find this book , it could be quite useful.
great book.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by Dhammanando »

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:09 am
I am flortunate a book " Guide througe the abidamma pitaka " Written by Nyanathilika thero who lived at Galduwa Aranya ( Galle Sri lanka). It explains details from abidamma pitaka. ( 1st edition in1938).
If one can find this book , it could be quite useful.
It's available online and certainly would be a good way to get one's bearings regarding the contents of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka.

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.210336
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

justindesilva
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by justindesilva »

justindesilva wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 7:09 am
EternalHindu wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:08 am
Hii,
What is Exactly Abhidhamma?
Abhidharma or Abhidhamma are ancient Buddhist texts which contain detailed analytic reworkings of doctrinal material appearing in the Buddhist sutras, according to schematic classifications.
I am fortunate to have a book " Guide througe the abidamma pitaka " Written by Nyanathilika thero who lived at Galduwa Aranya ( Galle Sri lanka). It explains details from abidamma pitaka. ( 1st edition in1938).
If one can find this book , it could be quite useful.
please note that in writing the name of the author of the book , it should be corrected as " NYANATILOKA" and I have written Nyanathilika.
My apologies for this mistake please.

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Mohan Gnanathilake
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by Mohan Gnanathilake »

EternalHindu wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:08 am
What is Exactly Abhidhamma?
The Abhidahamma is the part of the Gautama Buddha’s teachings which analyses the different states of mind and which explains in detail about everything which is real. The study of the Abhidhamma helps us to understand which causes bring which effects in our life an in the lives of other people.
All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind-made are they. If one speaks or acts with impure mind pain follows him like the wheel the hoof of the ox.
(Dhammapada 1, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

All thoughts begin in the mind, mind is supreme and mind –made are they. If one speaks or acts with pure mind happiness follows him like one’s shadow that never leaves.
(Dhammapada 2, Yamaka Vagga – The Twin Verses)

MettaDevPrac
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:42 am
EternalHindu wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:08 am
What is Exactly Abhidhamma?
The Abhidahamma is the part of the Gautama Buddha’s teachings which analyses the different states of mind and which explains in detail about everything which is real. The study of the Abhidhamma helps us to understand which causes bring which effects in our life an in the lives of other people.
I think this is unintentionally misleading. "Part" but never identified as sutta discources or words of the Buddha; the analysis, caterogizations, arrangement of Abhidhamma may be consistent with the Teachings of the Buddha, maybe most carefully done, by arahants even, in the Sangha. But it was created and gathered post parinibbana, post 1st council. AFAIK this is uncontested.

For some, this makes reliance on it troubling, and they turn to sutta and vinaya. And I think that's fine, especially for controversial points. Many of those, AFAIK, were considered by arahants as being peripheral issues at most to the Four Noble Truths practice leading towards liberation. (Note: I am not saying the primary concern of Abhidhamma are those points of controversy! The contrary seems true, actually; and that might clarify why some find Abhidhamma a most excellent source.)
EternalHindu wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:08 am
Hii,
What is Exactly Abhidhamma?
Abhidharma or Abhidhamma are ancient Buddhist texts which contain detailed analytic reworkings of doctrinal material appearing in the Buddhist sutras, according to schematic classifications.
Seems excellent careful definition, to me.
- MettaDevPrac

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robertk
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by robertk »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:40 am
Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:42 am
EternalHindu wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 6:08 am
What is Exactly Abhidhamma?
The Abhidahamma is the part of the Gautama Buddha’s teachings which analyses the different states of mind and which explains in detail about everything which is real. The study of the Abhidhamma helps us to understand which causes bring which effects in our life an in the lives of other people.
I think this is unintentionally misleading. "Part" but never identified as sutta discources or words of the Buddha; the analysis, caterogizations, arrangement of Abhidhamma may be consistent with the Teachings of the Buddha, maybe most carefully done, by arahants even, in the Sangha. But it was created and gathered post parinibbana, post 1st council. AFAIK this is uncontested.

You might find that your conclusion is in fact contested.

MettaDevPrac
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by MettaDevPrac »

robertk wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:44 am
MettaDevPrac wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:40 am
Mohan Gnanathilake wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:42 am


The Abhidahamma is the part of the Gautama Buddha’s teachings which analyses the different states of mind and which explains in detail about everything which is real. The study of the Abhidhamma helps us to understand which causes bring which effects in our life an in the lives of other people.
I think this is unintentionally misleading. "Part" but never identified as sutta discources or words of the Buddha; the analysis, caterogizations, arrangement of Abhidhamma may be consistent with the Teachings of the Buddha, maybe most carefully done, by arahants even, in the Sangha. But it was created and gathered post parinibbana, post 1st council. AFAIK this is uncontested.

You might find that your conclusion is in fact contested.
I will reread the thread with closer attention tomorrow, but if it's not already there, please, educate me (or us). (at your convenience) 🙏

("It" being Abhidhamma created and gathered prior to the Buddha's parinibbana; Abhidhamma meaning the canonical Abhidhamma, not the living tradition of analysis, teachng and writings).
- MettaDevPrac

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Dhammanando
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by Dhammanando »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:07 am
I will reread the thread with closer attention tomorrow, but if it's not already there, please, educate me (or us).
There's no belief about the origins of any Buddhist text that is entirely uncontested. "Uncontestedness" can be truthfully asserted only when we confine ourselves to some limited sphere of opinion. For example, your view regarding the lateness of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka will probably be uncontested by professors of Buddhist studies in secular universities. The contrary view (i.e., that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha in elaborated form to the deva Santussita and in condensed form to Ven. Sāriputta), will be uncontested in all the Abhidhamma schools and in most of the monasteries of Myanmar and Thailand.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

MettaDevPrac
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by MettaDevPrac »

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:37 am
MettaDevPrac wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:07 am
I will reread the thread with closer attention tomorrow, but if it's not already there, please, educate me (or us).
There's no belief about the origins of any Buddhist text that is entirely uncontested. "Uncontestedness" can be truthfully asserted only when we confine ourselves to some limited sphere of opinion. For example, your view regarding the lateness of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka will probably be uncontested by professors of Buddhist studies in secular universities. The contrary view (i.e., that the Abhidhamma was taught by the Buddha in elaborated form to the deva Santussita and in condensed form to Ven. Sāriputta), will be uncontested in all the Abhidhamma schools and in most of the monasteries of Myanmar and Thailand.
A ncely nuanced response; thank you. Yes, it's probably true to say no belief about origins of any Buddhst text is uncontested; I agree, "Uncontestedness" can be truthfully asserted only when we confine ourselves to some limited sphere of opinion."

Thank you for the correction and teaching, I resolve to practice better in speech.
- MettaDevPrac

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robertk
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by robertk »

MettaDevPrac wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:07 am
robertk wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:44 am
MettaDevPrac wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:40 am


I think this is unintentionally misleading. "Part" but never identified as sutta discources or words of the Buddha; the analysis, caterogizations, arrangement of Abhidhamma may be consistent with the Teachings of the Buddha, maybe most carefully done, by arahants even, in the Sangha. But it was created and gathered post parinibbana, post 1st council. AFAIK this is uncontested.

You might find that your conclusion is in fact contested.
I will reread the thread with closer attention tomorrow, but if it's not already there, please, educate me (or us). (at your convenience) 🙏

("It" being Abhidhamma created and gathered prior to the Buddha's parinibbana; Abhidhamma meaning the canonical Abhidhamma, not the living tradition of analysis, teachng and writings).

The Atthasalini (expositor) p. 32:
“Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas” p35 “thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya clasification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units”
Majjhima Nikaya
Mahagosingha sutta
“the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma”

Gulissaani Sutta (M 69)
aaraññikenaavuso, bhikkhunaa abhidhamme abhivinaye yogo kara.niiyo “Friends, by a bhikkhu living the forest effort ought to be made in abhidhamma and abhivinaya”

Vinaya pitaka
“If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -‘pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya’ there is no offense”
Vinaya iv 344

__________
.

From the expositor p. 16-17 : the buddha in the 4th week after his enlightenment he contemplated the Dhammasangani (1st section of abhidhamma)
“and while he contemplated the
Dhammasangani his body did not emit rays; .. but when it came to the great book (the Patthana of the Abhidhamma) he began to contemplate the 24 conditions..his omniscience found its opportunity therein..”
I have visted the site in Bodhgaya and it is marked by a marble tablet about 20 meters from the site where he sat under the Bodhi tree.

ABHIDHAMMA AND VIPASSANA, Sitagu Sayadaw:

“The abhidhamma which the venerable Sariputta heard in brief from the Buddha he preached to his five hundred disciples in a way that was neither brief nor extended. The monks who learned the abhidhamma
from the venerable Sariputta were newly ordained, having entered the Order on the day the Buddha ascended to Tavatimsa heaven. These five hundred sons-of good-family took ordination at that time – the
full moon day of Waso – because they were inspired to faith by a display of miracles performed at the foot of a white mango tree. On the following day, they listened to the Abhidhamma; and it was this Abhidhamma which became for those monks their Vipassana.

“And why was this? Those five hundred monks, all of whom became arahants during the rains-retreat of that year (the seventh rains- retreat of the Buddha), also became by the end of the retreat, masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma (abhidhammika sattapakaranika). The Buddha first assembled the entire Dhamma and taught it all together (as the Dhammasangani). He then analyzed it into separate parts and taught (the Vibhanga). He further analyzed it in detail according to elements (producing thereby, the
Dhatukatha). Again he assembled it together and again analyzed it into minute parts, this time in relation to individuals, (and so taught the Puggalapannati). After that, the Buddha examined and compared the different doctrines existing in the world and taught (the Kathavatthu). Thereupon, he examined and taught the Dhamma in pairs (Yamaka); and finally, taught the doctrine of causal relations in detail (Pathana).

“The seven methods of examining Dhamma presented in the seven books of the Abhidhamma; that is to say, 1) the analysis of mind (citta), mental factors (cetasika) and matter (rupa) when taken together, 2) the analysis of the same when distinguished into parts, 3) the analysis of elements, 4) the analysis of individuals, 5) the comparison of doctrines, 6) the analysis of Dhamma into pairs, and 7) the examination of causal relations, are in truth none other than seven exceedingly deep methods of Vipassana practice. For this reason it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the Abhidhamma – this being the teaching of abhidhamma-vipassana they had listened to since their ordination – was the very day they mastered the practice of Vipassana.” endquote

_____________





( “A bhikkhuni is guilty of a minor offence) if she questions on the Abhidhamma or Vinaya after getting permission (to question) on the Suttanta, or on the Suttanta or Vinaya after getting permission (to question) on the Abhidhamma, or on the suttanta or Abhidhamma after getting permission (to question) on the Vinaya.”

Sanghadisesa VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, translated by I.B. Horner:



From the atthasalini:

QUOTE
“The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book was also determined by him. In this way the elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law. Such being the case, was the elder the very first to understand the Abhidhamma? Nay, it was the supreme Buddha who first understood the Abhidhamma….”



QUOTE
“Rays of six colours -indigo, golden, red, white, tawny, and dazzling – issued from the Teacher’s body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Law by his omniscience which had found such opportunity” when he “began to contemplate the twenty- four universal causal relations of condition, of presentation, and so on….”.

Robert

MettaDevPrac
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by MettaDevPrac »

robertk wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:46 am
MettaDevPrac wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 7:07 am
robertk wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:44 am

You might find that your conclusion is in fact contested.
I will reread the thread with closer attention tomorrow, but if it's not already there, please, educate me (or us). (at your convenience) 🙏

("It" being Abhidhamma created and gathered prior to the Buddha's parinibbana; Abhidhamma meaning the canonical Abhidhamma, not the living tradition of analysis, teachng and writings).

The Atthasalini (expositor) p. 32:
“Which is the Khuddaka Nikaya? The whole of the Vinaya-pitaka, Abhidhamma pitaka and the fifteen divisions excluding the four nikayas” p35 “thus as rehearsed at the [first]council the Abhidhamma is a Pitaka by Pitaka classification, khuddaka -nikaya by Nikaya clasification, veyyakarana by part-classification and constitues two or three thousand units of text by classification of textual units”
Majjhima Nikaya
Mahagosingha sutta
“the talk of two Bhikkhus on the Abhidhamma, each asking and answering the other without faltering is in accord with the Dhamma”

Gulissaani Sutta (M 69)
aaraññikenaavuso, bhikkhunaa abhidhamme abhivinaye yogo kara.niiyo “Friends, by a bhikkhu living the forest effort ought to be made in abhidhamma and abhivinaya”

Vinaya pitaka
“If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -‘pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya’ there is no offense”
Vinaya iv 344

__________
.

From the expositor p. 16-17 : the buddha in the 4th week after his enlightenment he contemplated the Dhammasangani (1st section of abhidhamma)
“and while he contemplated the
Dhammasangani his body did not emit rays; .. but when it came to the great book (the Patthana of the Abhidhamma) he began to contemplate the 24 conditions..his omniscience found its opportunity therein..”
I have visted the site in Bodhgaya and it is marked by a marble tablet about 20 meters from the site where he sat under the Bodhi tree.

ABHIDHAMMA AND VIPASSANA, Sitagu Sayadaw:

“The abhidhamma which the venerable Sariputta heard in brief from the Buddha he preached to his five hundred disciples in a way that was neither brief nor extended. The monks who learned the abhidhamma
from the venerable Sariputta were newly ordained, having entered the Order on the day the Buddha ascended to Tavatimsa heaven. These five hundred sons-of good-family took ordination at that time – the
full moon day of Waso – because they were inspired to faith by a display of miracles performed at the foot of a white mango tree. On the following day, they listened to the Abhidhamma; and it was this Abhidhamma which became for those monks their Vipassana.

“And why was this? Those five hundred monks, all of whom became arahants during the rains-retreat of that year (the seventh rains- retreat of the Buddha), also became by the end of the retreat, masters of the seven books of the Abhidhamma (abhidhammika sattapakaranika). The Buddha first assembled the entire Dhamma and taught it all together (as the Dhammasangani). He then analyzed it into separate parts and taught (the Vibhanga). He further analyzed it in detail according to elements (producing thereby, the
Dhatukatha). Again he assembled it together and again analyzed it into minute parts, this time in relation to individuals, (and so taught the Puggalapannati). After that, the Buddha examined and compared the different doctrines existing in the world and taught (the Kathavatthu). Thereupon, he examined and taught the Dhamma in pairs (Yamaka); and finally, taught the doctrine of causal relations in detail (Pathana).

“The seven methods of examining Dhamma presented in the seven books of the Abhidhamma; that is to say, 1) the analysis of mind (citta), mental factors (cetasika) and matter (rupa) when taken together, 2) the analysis of the same when distinguished into parts, 3) the analysis of elements, 4) the analysis of individuals, 5) the comparison of doctrines, 6) the analysis of Dhamma into pairs, and 7) the examination of causal relations, are in truth none other than seven exceedingly deep methods of Vipassana practice. For this reason it can be said that the day the five hundred monks mastered the Abhidhamma – this being the teaching of abhidhamma-vipassana they had listened to since their ordination – was the very day they mastered the practice of Vipassana.” endquote

_____________





( “A bhikkhuni is guilty of a minor offence) if she questions on the Abhidhamma or Vinaya after getting permission (to question) on the Suttanta, or on the Suttanta or Vinaya after getting permission (to question) on the Abhidhamma, or on the suttanta or Abhidhamma after getting permission (to question) on the Vinaya.”

Sanghadisesa VII, in the Book of Discipline, PTS, translated by I.B. Horner:



From the atthasalini:

QUOTE
“The textual order of the Abhidhamma originated with Sariputta; the numerical series in the Great Book was also determined by him. In this way the elder, without spoiling the unique doctrine, laid down the numerical series in order to make it easy to learn, remember, study and teach the Law. Such being the case, was the elder the very first to understand the Abhidhamma? Nay, it was the supreme Buddha who first understood the Abhidhamma….”



QUOTE
“Rays of six colours -indigo, golden, red, white, tawny, and dazzling – issued from the Teacher’s body, as he was contemplating the subtle and abstruse Law by his omniscience which had found such opportunity” when he “began to contemplate the twenty- four universal causal relations of condition, of presentation, and so on….”.

Robert
It appears most of your sources are Buddhaghosa, is this correct? This would be 5th Century CE. Can we talk about anythng earlier?
- MettaDevPrac

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robertk
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by robertk »

from the
Vinaya pitaka
“If without any intention of reviling the Vinaya one were to instigate another saying -‘pray study the suttas or gathas or Abhidhamma first and afterwards learn the vinaya’ there is no offense”
Vinaya iv 344


I am also interested in your pre 5th century sources proving that the Abhidhamma was a late invention.

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confusedlayman
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Re: Information about Abhidhamma

Post by confusedlayman »

Great seers who are free from craving declare that
Nibbàna is an objective state (63) which is deathless, absolutely endless, non-conditioned (64), and incomparable

(abhidhamma)

how can It be objective state when u need perception and cognition to perceive signless etc...
Find a tree and practice jhana or dont regret later- Buddha
Something exist, dont exist, both exist and non exist, neither exist nor dont exist .. all these four possibilities are wrong- Nagarjuna
Find a dhamma companion or roam alone like rhinoceros in the wild- Buddha
If you are not happy even after following 8NP then you are doing it wrong- CL (confused layman)

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