What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Post Reply
SarathW
Posts: 10511
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:10 am

What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.
According to the following chart, there is no consciousness of an Ariya when they emerge from Jhana.
Why?

The second question is why Arupavacara Ariya consciousness is not mentioned in the following chart?

https://abhidhamma-studies.weebly.com/u ... _minds.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

theY
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Post by theY » Sun Sep 16, 2018 4:43 pm

Ariya person is personal ability to live without the ceased unwholesome mind. Ariya person is not mind. Magga&phala are lokuttara mind because they can know only nibbāna. It doesn't mean while ariya-person is not attaining lokuttara jhāna, that ariya-person will lose own ability to live without the ceased unwholesome mind. It like after you graduated english conversation course, you can speak english although you talk in thai language, too.

So after emerge from lokuttara-jhāna, bhavaṅa mind, kāmāvacara-mahākusala/mahāvipāka/mahākiriyā mind, and ahetuka mind, still available to arise, too.

See saṅgaha chapter 4
http://www.palikanon.com/english/sangaha/chapter_4.htm
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

User avatar
Volovsky
Posts: 282
Joined: Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:32 am

Re: What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Post by Volovsky » Mon Sep 17, 2018 5:00 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:10 am
What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.
I agree here with theY with only correction that non-arahant ariya can also have akusala cittas, of the defilements he didn't eliminate yet by magga. E.g. sotapanna might still have pride (i.e. cittas connected with lobha), etc.
The second question is why Arupavacara Ariya consciousness is not mentioned in the following chart?
That one is somewhat more complicated. If you check the cetasikas of four magga and four phala cittas, you would see, they can be connected (among other cetasikas) with #1) vitakka, vicāra, pīti, sukha, ekaggatā or #2) vicāra, pīti, sukha, ekaggatā or #3) pīti, sukha, ekaggatā or #4) sukha, ekaggatā or #5) upekkhā, ekaggatā. So, in terms of standard jhāna factors #1) we can call 1st rūpavācara citta, #2): 2nd rūpavācara citta ... #5): 5th rūpavācara citta, since corresponding magga and phala cittas have the same jhāna factors as corresponding rūpavācara cittas.

All aūpa jhānas have the same jhāna factors as the 5th rūpavācara jhāna. Therefore even if yogi takes some arūpa jhāna as object of his vipassana analyzing its factors as anicca, dukkha, anatta and attains magga-phala, it will still have the same factors as the 5th rūpavācara jhāna (namely upekkhā and ekaggatā) and therefore this case is included in "5th rūpavācara jhāna lokuttara citta". If you want more details please refer to Handbook of Abhidhamma Studies by U Sīlānanda, p. 193 (Forty Lokuttara Cittas).

theY
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Post by theY » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:37 am

Therefore, lokuttara-appanā jhāna has not arūpa-state, lokuttara-nibbāna are over all aggregates, paṭicca-samuppāda cessation at all. That means there is no rūpa-object or arūpa-object for lokuttara-appanā consumer to think out of, no object for meditation, because the nibbāna-object, of lokuttara-appanā-jhāna, has already out of all aggregates.

The explanation of meditation's relative words:

Pāli words relation:
The paṭipanno bhāvanā samādhi by doing jhāna of samatha-ārammṇa. The comparison of bhāvanā's paricita called (nānā ārammanāni) khaṇiko samādhi, the upacāra of samādhi to samāpatti the ekagga-bhāva, and the upacāra of samādhi to samāpatti the ekagga-bhāva. (I used all of pāli word as nāma-sadda to avoid vibhatti's variation, but ). Ekaggatā is eka-bhāva of citta that has eka-rāsi of cetasikasampayutta and eka-ārammaṇa.

The translation of above pāli words relation: The practitioner meditates concentration-meditation by watching samatha-object. The comparision of meditation's evolution called various-object-momentary concentration, almost-consummated-one-pointedness concentration, and already-consummated-one-pointedness concentration. The one-pointedness is the state of mind that has only one same set of mental factors and only one-object continuously arising.

Lokiya = Under Aggregates' Dependency, paṭiccasamuppāda.
Lokuttara = Over Aggregates' Dependency. Lokuttara-aggregates are over present&future taṇhā aggregates, and future resultants. Lokuttara-nibbāna are over all aggregates.

By Abhi. Vibhaṅgo, Samāpatti (consummation) means bhāvanā (meditation). By Mettānisaṅsasutta, it's atthakathā, and Visuddhimagga, bhāvanā (meditation) means the meditation minds continuously arise without the barrier, hindrances.

So, lokuttara-samāpatti means the consummation of lokuttara-citta meditation. And lokiya-samāpatti means the consummation of lokiya-citta meditation.

What is appanā of one-pointedness?

The practitioner meditates the meditation to be proficient (samāpatti). The professor (samāpanno) of the meditation can think of the meditation object without bhavaṅga, five hindrances, and the letting go object. This is why the one-pointedness can be the state of mind that has only one same set of mental factors and only one-object continuously arising.

What is the difference of Lokiya Appanā VS Lokuttara Appanā?

Note: this is just the comparison. But in the real situation, virtual mind&concentration mind&insight mind switch each others to arise depend on the environment of the meditation. The purified virtual and purified concentration (visuddhi) arise automatically in the proper situation because to support the Insight meditation. This is the reason why taṇhā-carita practitioner should meditate concentration meditation specially, his concentration must ready to arise automatically in the environment that five hindrances, pariyuṭṭhāna-kilesa, can arise to hinder all meditation. The concentration mind must automatically arise before the hindrances arise to destroy the meditation.

Lokuttara Appanā
Practitioner is 4 Mahākusala/4 mahākiriyā mind with 33 mental factors.
Practitioner's object is Whole five aggregates in dependent origination cycle for the appearance of three normal characteristics.
The enemy is whole future 14 arise-able unwholesome (anusaya-kilesa) especially avijjā, lobha, dosa, sakkāya-diṭṭhi.
Enlightenment is 40 lokuttara appanā minds with 36 mental factors 40 which knowing only nibbāna.
Enlightenment's object is Nibbāna-object which is the opposite of whole five aggregates.

Lokiya Appanā
Practitioner is 4 Mahākusala/4 mahākiriyā mind with 35 mental factors.
Practitioner's object is the pair enemy-object of specific present unwholesome (pariyuṭṭhāna-kilesa), such as asubha-meditation is the couple of subha-kāmarāga hindrance.
The enemy is the whole present 14 arise-able unwholesome (pariyuṭṭhāna-kilesa) especially 5 hindrances.
Consummation is 27 lokiya appanā minds with 35 mental factors which knowing only that pair enemy-object of specific present unwholesome (pariyuṭṭhāna-kilesa).
Consummation's object is the pair enemy-object of specific present unwholesome (pariyuṭṭhāna-kilesa). Some of them are the realities, some of them are paññatti:
  1. Because five strings (paṇcakāmaguṇa) are variant reality at five senses, the rūpa-jhāna practitioner must think of the unlimited enemy imagination (paññaiti-object) of five string realities to avoid the five-string-reality thought. But rūpa-jhāna concentration base on the matter, the jhāna's element-pausing effort is not the cause of getting arūpa-object. The rūpa-jhāna consumer can get arūpa-object after his jhāna-power is strong enough.
  2. Because out of the paused jhāna-elements, the fifth rūpa-jhāna consumer's ability is ready to think without any matter, the fifth rūpa-jhāna consumer can meditate arūpa-jhāna from now on.
  3. Because every paññatti-object of rūpa-jhāna base on the collection of five strings (seven gocara-rūpa), this jhāna consumer still be easy to return to attach five strings again. So, the fifth rūpa-jhāna consumer must try to think out of every five strings by thinking of arūpa-jhāna object. Letting matter go because nothing of arūpa-jhāna object relating with matter.
Therefore, lokuttara-appanā jhāna has not arūpa-state, lokuttara-nibbāna are over all aggregates, paṭicca-samuppāda cessation at all. That means there is no rūpa-object or arūpa-object for lokuttara-appanā consumer to think out of, no object for meditation, because the nibbāna-object, of lokuttara-appanā-jhāna, has already out of all aggregates.
robertk wrote:
This is a gift for you.
Last edited by theY on Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

SarathW
Posts: 10511
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:59 am

TheY
I could not make head or tail of your post.
Thanks for the effort anyway.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

theY
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Post by theY » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:11 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:59 am
TheY
I could not make head or tail of your post.
Thanks for the effort anyway.
Is it because of my lacking english?
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

SarathW
Posts: 10511
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: What is the consciousness of an Ariya (Sotapanna etc) when they emerge from the Jhana.

Post by SarathW » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:34 am

theY wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:11 am
SarathW wrote:
Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:59 am
TheY
I could not make head or tail of your post.
Thanks for the effort anyway.
Is it because of my lacking english?
It is ok.
My English is not that good either.
Make short posts.
:thumbsup:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests