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Layt
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Need details

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 12:20 pm

Hi, does the Abhidhamma provide a description of deva, peta, yakkha etc ?

Also does it provide any detail on the brahmā plane corresponding to the 4th jhāna where consciousness isn't present ?

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DooDoot
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Re: Need details

Post by DooDoot » Mon May 07, 2018 9:01 pm

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 12:20 pm
Hi, does the Abhidhamma provide a description of deva, peta, yakkha etc ?
All Buddha-Dhamma appears to be divided between happy (wholesome) states & unhappy (unwholesome) states. From Abhidhamma book:



Above, deva is a happy state and peta is an unhappy state. Beings are generally born amongst Petas through craving (page 128). 8. Peta = pa + ita: lit., departed beings, or (those) absolutely devoid of happiness. They are not disembodied spirits or ghosts. Although they possess material
forms generally they are invisible to the physical eye. They have no plane of their own, but live in forests, dirty surroundings, etc. (page 270).

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Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 12:20 pm
Also does it provide any detail on the brahmā plane corresponding to the 4th jhāna where consciousness isn't present ?
Consciousness is present in the 4th jhana. While Abhidhamma has some different ideas to the Pali suttas; Abhidhamma would not be so extreme & discordant to say the 4th jhana has no consciousness.
Furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — Sariputta entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. Whatever qualities there are in the fourth jhana — a feeling of equanimity, neither pleasure nor pain; an unconcern due to serenity of awareness; singleness of mind, contact, feeling, perception, intention, consciousness, desire, decision, persistence, mindfulness, equanimity, & attention — he ferreted them out one after another. Known to him they arose, known to him they remained, known to him they subsided. He discerned, 'So this is how these qualities, not having been, come into play. Having been, they vanish.' He remained unattracted & unrepelled with regard to those qualities, independent, detached, released, dissociated, with an awareness rid of barriers. He discerned that 'There is a further escape,' and pursuing it there really was for him.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
How could the 4th jhana have no consciousness when the Buddha used the 4th jhana to attain awakening?
With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — I entered & remained in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain.

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives.

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the passing away & reappearance of beings.

When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of the ending of the mental fermentations. I discerned, as it had come to be, that 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress... These are fermentations... This is the origination of fermentations... This is the cessation of fermentations... This is the way leading to the cessation of fermentations.' My heart, thus knowing, thus seeing, was released from the fermentation of sensuality, released from the fermentation of becoming, released from the fermentation of ignorance. With release, there was the knowledge, 'Released.' I discerned that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
From an Abhidhamma book:
Fourth Jhàna moral consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness (page 62)

Fourth Jhàna Resultant consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness (page 63)

Fourth Jhàna Functional consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness (page 63)

As he concentrates thus on the third consciousness he develops the fourth Jhàna. Although the term “Sannà” is used here, Vedanà, (feeling) and Sankhàrà, (mental states) are also included therein.... The second and the fourth Jhàna consciousness have for their objects the first and the third Jhàna consciousness respectively (page 78)

The Fourth Jhàna Sotàpatti Path-consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness (page 82)

In the Fourth Jhàna consciousness Initial Application, Sustained Application, and Joy are excluded. (page 155)

forty-four types (6) of Sublime and Supramundane consciousness pertaining to the first, second, third, and fourth Jhànas (page 168)

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf

Layt
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Re: Need details

Post by Layt » Mon May 07, 2018 10:31 pm

So no detailed description then, just the standard depiction.

The Brahmaa plane of the 4th jhaana possesses 2 planes, one of which is said to be inhabited by beings that made their consciousness cease through meditation during their previous life. I didn't come up with it. Since this goes in total contradiction with the 12 nidana, I wondered if more detailed were available.

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Re: Need details

Post by Dhammanando » Tue May 08, 2018 12:25 am

Layt wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 10:31 pm
The Brahmaa plane of the 4th jhaana possesses 2 planes, one of which is said to be inhabited by beings that made their consciousness cease through meditation during their previous life. I didn't come up with it. Since this goes in total contradiction with the 12 nidana, I wondered if more detailed were available.
I think you mean the impercipient beings, asaññasattā. In their human existence they arrived at the so-called impercipient attainment, but this isn't the same as the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling.

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Re: Need details

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue May 08, 2018 1:49 am

i'm just wondering why people believe in the abhidhamma. is it a desire for there to be an esoteric doctrine... conceit?
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Layt
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Re: Need details

Post by Layt » Tue May 08, 2018 9:56 am

I don't believe in the Abhidhamma in case you wondered, and I don't believe in the Theravada either.

There are things that I believe in, like the idea of an almost non-percipient state (the 8th jhana) or the fact that craving causes stress, but I certainly do not believe in rebirth and fairies (which were non-aryans tribes btw).

"Asañña" means "non-recognition".
"Recognition" is what the first translators called "perception".
So "asañña" is literally Nirodha, unless you tell me that the "satta" gives "asañña" a different meaning.

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Re: Need details

Post by auto » Tue May 08, 2018 10:40 am

Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:56 am
I don't believe in the Abhidhamma in case you wondered, and I don't believe in the Theravada either.

There are things that I believe in, like the idea of an almost non-percipient state (the 8th jhana) or the fact that craving causes stress, but I certainly do not believe in rebirth and fairies (which were non-aryans tribes btw).

"Asañña" means "non-recognition".
"Recognition" is what the first translators called "perception".
So "asañña" is literally Nirodha, unless you tell me that the "satta" gives "asañña" a different meaning.
you don't belive in rebirth okay.

But do you belive you can attain birth? its said it is very difficult to get human birth

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Dhammanando
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Re: Need details

Post by Dhammanando » Tue May 08, 2018 10:45 am

Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:56 am
"Asañña" means "non-recognition".
The a- prefix is a privative one: "without apperception".
Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 9:56 am
"Recognition" is what the first translators called "perception".
So "asañña" is literally Nirodha, unless you tell me that the "satta" gives "asañña" a different meaning.
Meanings needs to be gleaned from how terms are used and what the texts say about them. An examination merely of their etymology and manner of formation won't by itself be adequate.

The asaññā-samāpatti is not the same as nirodha in the sense of cessation of suffering, for those who attain it are reborn as impercipient devas and so remain saṃsāric beings.

Nor is asaññā-samāpatti the same as nirodha in the sense of the attainment of the cessation of apperception and feeling (saññāvedayita-nirodha-samāpatti). The principal differences:

Asaññā-samāpatti depends upon: (1) the fourth jhāna; (2) the wrong view that some neutral mental factor (usually saññā, though it could be any neutral factor) is the cause of dukkha; (3) a special mode of cultivation called saññāvirāga-bhāvanā undertaken by a yogi after emergence from the fourth jhāna.

Saññāvedayita-nirodha-samāpatti depends upon: (1) attainment of the four jhānas and four āruppas; (2) being already an anāgāmin or arahant.

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Re: Need details

Post by Layt » Tue May 08, 2018 10:58 am

Didn't several bhikkhu who weren't anagami reach Nirodha to attain Nibbana ?

I don't care whether the sutta/abhidhamma consider them as different attainments, they do not prove that they're different, they just say they are.

So the fact that no real explanation is given about their difference probably means they're identical. Which provides further evidence that the bhikkhu who invented the 12 nidana had no idea what they were doing. If consciousness needs to cease, then the arahant should all be braindead. Now if you tell me that the ending of consciousness is only Nirodha, I tell you that the reverse 12 nidana is actually nibbana, since it depicts the cessation of the rebirth process. And if nibbana is the ending of consciousness, then all arahant are braindead, just like I said before.

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Re: Need details

Post by auto » Tue May 08, 2018 11:22 am

Consciousness is awareness of an object, i have heard that you can be aware of subtle object what isn't form. So that can be considered cessation of consciousness too.

if you want to see the details of a tree you need use different pathway within the eye and if you can feel then there is pressure forming and it will spread to the sides of eye, it will prolly curve back to the center of brain and from there it snaps and you lose consciousness.

That pressure what forms is stress, and you get tired and need sleep it off.

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Re: Need details

Post by Dhammanando » Tue May 08, 2018 11:25 am

Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:58 am
Didn't several bhikkhu who weren't anagami reach Nirodha to attain Nibbana ?
In the classical Theravada understanding it is held that everyone who arrives at arahantship will do so by first traversing the lower paths and fruits, i.e., of stream-entry, once-returning and non-returning. But as sutta narratives of the attainment of arahantship are usually in abbreviated form it's not usual for all four stages to be described in every case.
Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:58 am
I don't care whether the sutta/abhidhamma consider them as different attainments,
And I don't care whether you care. If you post in the classical Theravada forum or its sub-forums, then whether you care or whether you don't care, you should expect that your questions will be answered according to the Theravada abhidhammic and commentarial point of view. (And if you really don't care, then it's a little silly of you to go posting in this section).
Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:58 am
So the fact that no real explanation is given about their difference probably means they're identical.
That the explanation fails to confirm your prejudices hardly makes it unreal.


:alien:

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DooDoot
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Re: Need details

Post by DooDoot » Tue May 08, 2018 8:41 pm

Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:58 am
Which provides further evidence that the bhikkhu who invented the 12 nidana had no idea what they were doing.
Suttas such as MN 38 say the 12 nidana are objects of independent meditative insight; that when the mind has real attainment, it has no doubts about the 12 nidana. The suttas say:
Seeing Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma (MN 28); Seeing the Dhamma sees the Buddha (SN 22.87).
It seems obvious Enlightened Minds (Buddhas) have no doubts about the 12 nidana.
Layt wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:58 am
If consciousness needs to cease, then the arahant should all be braindead.
This matter about "vinnana-nirodha" in the reverse order of Dependent Origination has been discussed many times on the forum, including my myself. However, my impression is if you intellectually understood the 12 nidana, it would probably not benefit you because it seems obvious by your posts that the abandonment of ego or selfing is difficult, possibly impossible, for your mind. If this is true, teaching the True Dhamma to you could be harmful. In Buddhism, anything that causes harm to another, including the teaching of Dhamma, is wrong & to be avoided. This is why the Buddha did not teach Higher Dhamma to every person that he met and why after attaining Enlightenment the Buddha resolved to silence rather than to teaching.
'Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction (faith).
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people
the refined,
sublime Dhamma.'

MN 26

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Re: Need details

Post by theY » Thu May 17, 2018 4:34 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 9:01 pm
Consciousness is present in the 4th jhana. While Abhidhamma has some different ideas to the Pali suttas; Abhidhamma would not be so extreme & discordant to say the 4th jhana has no consciousness.
The fact is both sutta and abhidhamma never said "there is no consciousness of 4th-jhāna-attaining people". But abhidhamma said "asaññasatta has no consciousness".
DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 9:01 pm
From an Abhidhamma book:
Fourth Jhàna moral consciousness together with happiness and one-pointedness (page 62)
....
http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/abhidhamma.pdf
It is a very misunderstood quote. The quote showing 4th-jhāna-attaining peoples' minds, not asaññasattas' minds.

Another, all of your quote showing "both abhidhamma and sutta said 'there are 4th-jhāna-attaining peoples' consciousness, while the practitioner is attaining 4th-jhāna'". Because in anupadasutta, which you quoting, said about 4th-jhāna-consciousness of sāriputta as the object o the insight meditation of sāriputta, which he does after he exit that 4th-jhāna.

So, both abhidhamma and sutta said "there are 4th-jhāna-attaining peoples' consciousness, while the practitioner is attaining 4th-jhāna".
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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