Temperature born matter and plants?

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zan
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Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by zan » Wed May 02, 2018 1:51 am

I noticed that the Abhidhamma teaches that there is temperature born matter such as geologic formations and climatic conditions which are not the result of kamma, nor consciousness, nor nutriment (Abhidhammattha Sangaha VI Bodhi, guide to 12). This would mean that they are not volitional formations as volitional formations are the result of kamma. Also plants are not the result of kamma either and so again, not volitional formations (Abhidhammattha Sangaha Narada Maha Thera Page 109).

I assume that I am misunderstanding the suttas because the compilers of the Abhidhamma seem to have been very good about making sure their teachings are in sync with the suttas and explain clearly when there are any confusing ideas, and my misconception is that the suttas teach that all form is the result of volitional formations which are the result of kamma.

Since this seems to be a contradiction where I do not expect one, I naturally came to the fine people on here so that they may explain to me how the elders got this from the suttas, and how, therefore, I am misapprehending the texts.

Please and thank you.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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dylanj
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by dylanj » Wed May 02, 2018 3:42 am

your interpertation of the suttas is right, the abhidhamma is heavily flawed & posits a materialist-realist worldview that is totally out of sync with the suttas

there is no real form of the sort explained here, there is a perception of form & thus as you & also the Buddha say, it is all mind-made
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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robertk
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by robertk » Wed May 02, 2018 3:56 am

there are 4 causes for rupa: either kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition.

In things like plants and anything outside a living body all matter is produced solely by temperature .
In the body most matter is produced by temperature but there is also matter produced by citta, and by kamma, and by nutrition.

zan
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by zan » Wed May 02, 2018 3:59 am

dylanj wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 3:42 am
your interpertation of the suttas is right, the abhidhamma is heavily flawed & posits a materialist-realist worldview that is totally out of sync with the suttas

there is no real form of the sort explained here, there is a perception of form & thus as you & also the Buddha say, it is all mind-made
Thank you. I am skeptical of the idea that it is that simple. The compilers of the Abhidhamma were very intelligent and it is highly unlikely that there is zero support for their view in the suttas, there likely is at least a kernel of an idea in the suttas that they fleshed out into the different types of matter, rather than having simply pulled these ideas out of thin air with no connection to the suttas at all.

On the other hand, even if they used an outside understanding to come up with these ideas that was not originally related to the suttas, it is highly probable that they still found sutta quotes to support their ideas. Words are always open to some interpretation and so intelligent individuals can see how their ideas can be found in the same text where others do not see them.

There are not many things or perhaps there are no things that the commentators taught that they did not find a way to explain as being in sync with the suttas.

I imagine one of the Abhidhamma scholars on here will come along to explain :)
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by zan » Wed May 02, 2018 4:05 am

robertk wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 3:56 am
there are 4 causes for rupa: either kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition.

In things like plants and anything outside a living body all matter is produced solely by temperature .
In the body most matter is produced by temperature but there is also matter produced by citta, and by kamma, and by nutrition.
Thank you. That was my understanding. What I would like to know is do the suttas allow for matter that is not born from kamma, consciousness or volitional formations? Or in the suttas is even the earth constructed by volitional formations that are the result of beings kamma?

It seems plausible that "form" in the suttas may be speaking about bodies and the earth element may be speaking about earth itself. To my knowledge the suttas specify that all forms are constructed by volitional formations but perhaps the earth element is not seen as falling under this category and so is what is interpreted as temperature born matter in the Abhidhamma?

Put another way: all forms (bodies) are constructed by volitional formations as well as all of the abilities that come along with bodies: feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. The earth element and all of the other things going on are discussed elsewhere in the suttas and no mention of them being solely the result of volitional formations is made and so this is the temperature born matter?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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robertk
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by robertk » Wed May 02, 2018 4:13 am

zan wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 4:05 am
robertk wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 3:56 am
there are 4 causes for rupa: either kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition.

In things like plants and anything outside a living body all matter is produced solely by temperature .
In the body most matter is produced by temperature but there is also matter produced by citta, and by kamma, and by nutrition.
Thank you. That was my understanding. What I would like to know is do the suttas allow for matter that is not born from kamma, consciousness or volitional formations? Or in the suttas is even the earth constructed by volitional formations that are the result of beings kamma?

It seems plausible that "form" in the suttas may be speaking about bodies and the earth element may be speaking about earth itself. To my knowledge the suttas specify that all forms are constructed by volitional formations but perhaps the earth element is not seen as falling under this category and so is what is interpreted as temperature born matter in the Abhidhamma?

Put another way: all forms (bodies) are constructed by volitional formations as well as all of the abilities that come along with bodies: feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. The earth element and all of the other things going on are discussed elsewhere in the suttas and no mention of them being solely the result of volitional formations is made and so this is the temperature born matter?
All matter arises in infinitely tiny kalapas which exist for an infinitely brief moment and then disappear. Each kalapa has at least 8 elements and this always includes the 4 great elements including earth element- > So all temperature produced matter as kalapa - has only these eight elements.
Matter produced by other causes has all these 8 elements plus additional ones...

zan
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by zan » Wed May 02, 2018 4:52 am

robertk wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 4:13 am
zan wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 4:05 am
robertk wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 3:56 am
there are 4 causes for rupa: either kamma, citta, temperature or nutrition.

In things like plants and anything outside a living body all matter is produced solely by temperature .
In the body most matter is produced by temperature but there is also matter produced by citta, and by kamma, and by nutrition.
Thank you. That was my understanding. What I would like to know is do the suttas allow for matter that is not born from kamma, consciousness or volitional formations? Or in the suttas is even the earth constructed by volitional formations that are the result of beings kamma?

It seems plausible that "form" in the suttas may be speaking about bodies and the earth element may be speaking about earth itself. To my knowledge the suttas specify that all forms are constructed by volitional formations but perhaps the earth element is not seen as falling under this category and so is what is interpreted as temperature born matter in the Abhidhamma?

Put another way: all forms (bodies) are constructed by volitional formations as well as all of the abilities that come along with bodies: feeling, perception, volitional formations and consciousness. The earth element and all of the other things going on are discussed elsewhere in the suttas and no mention of them being solely the result of volitional formations is made and so this is the temperature born matter?
All matter arises in infinitely tiny kalapas which exist for an infinitely brief moment and then disappear. Each kalapa has at least 8 elements and this always includes the 4 great elements including earth element- > So all temperature produced matter as kalapa - has only these eight elements.
Matter produced by other causes has all these 8 elements plus additional ones...
Okay thank you. But could you please give me your thoughts on the following?: do the suttas allow for matter to be temperature born and therefore not stemming from kamma resultant volitional formations? In the Abhidhamma a plant is not the result of being's kamma, is this possible in the suttas? Or in the suttas are plants necessarily the result of being's kamma?

"There is a certain kind of Rupa-Jivitindriya in plant life. But, Rupa-Jivitindriya in men and animals is differentiated
from that which exists in plants because the former
is conditioned by past Kamma"

Abhidhammattha Sangaha Narada Maha Thera Page 109

And this:

"Hadaya and 8 Indriya rupas (= eye, ear, nose,
tongue, body, masculinity, femininity, and vitality) are
wholly produced by Kamma. Thus jãvitindriya or the life principle
present in animate beings such as men and animals
should be differentiated from the inanimate life of
plants and inorganic substances, as they are not the inevitable
results of Kamma.
They do possess a certain kind of life different from
human beings and animals."

Abhidhammattha Sangaha Narada Maha Thera page 346

And that geologic formations are not the result of kamma either, they are temperature born matter and not the result of beings kamma. Or that a beings corpse becomes temperature born matter and no longer is consciousness, kamma and nutriment born matter.

Are these things possible in the suttas? Do the suttas allow for a geologic formation that is not a volitional formation caused by being's kamma? Ditto for the other examples?

I assume the commentators have explained why the suttas allow for this. What is the explanation?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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robertk
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by robertk » Wed May 02, 2018 7:47 am

It seems Narada is mistaken.

Rupa-jivitindriya is only in matter produced by kamma- hence never in plants.
It seems obvious to me that matter outside bodies is only produced by temperature- not kamma or citta..

zan
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by zan » Wed May 02, 2018 12:35 pm

robertk wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:47 am
It seems Narada is mistaken.

Rupa-jivitindriya is only in matter produced by kamma- hence never in plants.
It seems obvious to me that matter outside bodies is only produced by temperature- not kamma or citta..
Okay thank you, do the suttas allow for temperature born matter at all though? Or in the suttas is all matter necessarily the of kamma/volitional formations?

If not, how did the elders explain this?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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robertk
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by robertk » Fri May 04, 2018 4:49 am

zan wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 12:35 pm
robertk wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 7:47 am
It seems Narada is mistaken.

Rupa-jivitindriya is only in matter produced by kamma- hence never in plants.
It seems obvious to me that matter outside bodies is only produced by temperature- not kamma or citta..
Okay thank you, do the suttas allow for temperature born matter at all though? Or in the suttas is all matter necessarily the of kamma/volitional formations?

If not, how did the elders explain this?
there is the vimana vathhu, which talks about mansions ready for those who made good kamma for when they arrive in thecdeva world. it seems these mansions have a relation with kamma. It is a special case.

I am not aware of other examples of matter outside the body being attributed to anything other than tejo- did you find a sutta that says this is possible?

theY
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Re: Temperature born matter and plants?

Post by theY » Thu May 17, 2018 3:53 pm

zan wrote:
Wed May 02, 2018 12:35 pm

Okay thank you, do the suttas allow for temperature born matter at all though? Or in the suttas is all matter necessarily the of kamma/volitional formations?

If not, how did the elders explain this?
It is appear in the similitude of Sutta. Aṅ. (1): eka-duka-tikanipātā accāyikāsutta:
“tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, kassakassa gahapatissa accāyikāni karaṇīyāni. katamāni tīṇi? idha, bhikkhave, kassako gahapati sīghaṃ sīghaṃ khettaṃ sukaṭṭhaṃ karoti sumatikataṃ. sīghaṃ sīghaṃ khettaṃ sukaṭṭhaṃ karitvā sumatikataṃ sīghaṃ sīghaṃ bījāni patiṭṭhāpeti. sīghaṃ sīghaṃ bījāni patiṭṭhāpetvā sīghaṃ sīghaṃ udakaṃ abhinetipi apanetipi. imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi kassakassa gahapatissa accāyikāni karaṇīyāni. tassa kho taṃ, bhikkhave, kassakassa gahapatissa natthi sā iddhi vā ānubhāvo vā: ‘ajjeva me dhaññāni jāyantu, sveva gabbhīni hontu, uttarasveva paccantū’ti. atha kho, bhikkhave, hoti so samayo yaṃ tassa kassakassa gahapatissa tāni dhaññāni utupariṇāmīni jāyantipi gabbhīnipi honti paccantipi.

"There are these three urgent duties of a farming householder. Which three? "There is the case where a farming householder quickly gets his field well-plowed & well-harrowed. Having quickly gotten his field well-plowed & well-harrowed, he quickly plants the seed. Having quickly planted the seed, he quickly lets in the water & then lets it out. These are the three urgent duties of a farming householder. Now, that farming householder does not have the power or might [to say:] 'May my crops spring up today, may the grains appear tomorrow, and may they ripen the next day.' But when the time has come, the farming householder's crops spring up, the grains appear, and they ripen.
This similitude already show the understanding in activation energy (Ea) of the buddha which can occur in the matter cycle without kamma. This is called utu-niyāma in atthakathā.

Also, there are more information of the processing in "visuddhimagga maggāmaggañāṇadassanavisuddhiniddesa rupa-nibbatti-passanākāra-kathā (no.700)", the translation is path of purification (however, I think the translation of that path may be wrong, if they translate it follow the thai translation version). It is about 1 utu-matter (tejo) can create 4-12 new matters depend on the type of that utu.

So, you can use above information with Sutta. Tī. Pā. Aggaññasutta, and Sutta. Aṅ. (2): catukkanipāto puttasutta.

In my opinion, it is not make sense when someone say "every matter must arise by kamma", because it can not connect with the science. And it will be very complicate to arise, such as "if one stone can arise by infinity kamma, how the matter in the other galaxies, which are no lives, can arise?". But when the matters can arise by the other matters, especially temperature (tejo), without kamma-requiring, it is very clear and more possible to happen.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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