Nothing conflict between MN 44 and SN 12.2 in abhidhamma

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Post Reply
theY
Posts: 372
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Nothing conflict between MN 44 and SN 12.2 in abhidhamma

Post by theY » Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:51 am

According to this topic: The difference between kāyasaṅkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda and assāsapassāsa-kāyasaṅkhāra, I concluded:
theY wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm
There are 2 main type of saṅkhāra words are using in tipitaka: cause-saṅkhāra, that cause effect-saṅkhāra arising, and effect-saṅkhāra, that depending on cause-saṅkhāra to arise.
So, how abhidhamma described those suttas in real life?


Effect-saṅkhāra (saṅkhataṃ khayadhammaṃ vayadhammaṃ) in MN 44:
  1. effect-kāyasaṅkhāra, breath, are the effects of mind and mind factors which are arising, 9 cittaja-rūpas. And kāyasaṅkhāra causes a life still alive, not dead, jīvittindriya-rūpa of breath, 9 cittaja-rūpas.
  2. effect-vacīsaṅkhāra, vitakka/vicāra-mind's factors, are the effects of mind and the other mind factors, sahajāta-paccaya. And vacīsaṅkhāras cause the speech organs to speak, 10 cittaja-rūpas/13 cittaja-rūpas.
  3. effect-cittasaṅkhāra, saññā&vedanā-mind's factor, are the effects of mind and the other mind factors, sahajāta-paccaya. And cittasaṅkhāras cause mind and the other mind factors, sahajāta-paccaya, too.
Cause-saṅkhāra (saṅkhārā paccayā viññāṇaṃ) in SN 12.2:
  1. See SN 12.25.
  2. In advance, see CHAPTER XVII — THE SOIL OF UNDERSTANDING (CONCLUSION): DEPENDENT ORIGINATION of the path of purification.
So, both sutta not conflict each other. The actually problem is the reader has not enough knowledge to read it.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2962
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Nothing conflict between MN 44 and SN 12.2 in abhidhamma

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:46 am

theY wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:51 am
See SN 12.25.
SN 12.25, like SN 12.51, is a sutta that does not necessarily explain SN 12.2. SN 12.25 is about kamma & intention and is not necessarily about the exact twelve links of dependent origination but, instead, could be an abbreviated or adapted teaching of dependent origination.

SN 12.25 is presented in the following sequence:

Part 1: some ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, maintain that pleasure and pain are created by oneself; some ascetics and brahmins, proponents of kamma, maintain that pleasure and pain are created by another, which is wrong view per SN 12.17.

Part 2: the Blessed One has said that happiness and suffering are dependently arisen. Dependent on what? Dependent on contact... it is impossible that they will experience anything without contact.

Part 3: when there is the body, because of bodily volition (kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu) happiness and suffering (sukhadukkhaṃ) arise (uppajjati) internally; when there is speech, because of verbal volition happiness and suffering arise internally; when there is the mind, because of mental volition happiness and suffering arise internally—and with ignorance as condition.

It should be noted AN 6.63 says "kamma is intention". Because the topic in SN 12.25 is about kamma, the teaching of intention is introduced into the sutta. However, this does not mean this intention (kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu) is 2nd link sankhara because in Dependent Origination, intention arises at 4th link nama-rupa and also at 9th link craving. Similar to MN 149, the words sukhadukkhaṃ do not necessarily mean 'vedana' (feeling) but probably refer to 'happiness & suffering', as follows:
...delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering.

...delight and lust, and delights in this or that—is abandoned. One’s bodily and mental troubles are abandoned, one’s bodily and mental torments are abandoned, one’s bodily and mental fevers are abandoned, and one experiences bodily and mental pleasure.

MN 149
Part 4: Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda one generates (abhisaṅkharoti) that bodily formation (kāyasaṅkhāraṃ) conditioned by which happiness and suffering arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which happiness and suffering arise internally.

Now, the above Part 4 seems to have many problems, which similar to SN 12.51, brings into question its authenticity. Or, otherwise, the main discussion of the sutta is about what occurs after sense contact. The possible problems are:

1. In Part 1, the idea that the "self" creates "kamma" is refuted, similar to SN 12.17.

2. Yet in Part 4, it is said the "self" (i.e., one’s own initiative) generates a bodily condition or kayasankhara. This sounds like a contradiction; unless this abhisaṅkharoti occurs after sense contact; per the theme at the start of the sutta.

3. Within the same paragraph, both the terms "kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu" & "kāyasaṅkhāraṃ" are used yet why would the Buddha, who is supposed to be a perfect speaker, use two different terms to refer to the same thing? :shrug:

4. If the possible contradiction (of "one’s own initiative") is ignored, the sutta says:
Ānanda, when there is the body, because of bodily volition (kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu) happiness and suffering arise internally... with ignorance as condition. “Either on one’s own initiative, Ānanda one generates (abhisaṅkharoti) that bodily formation (kāyasaṅkhāraṃ) conditioned by which happiness and suffering arise internally; or prompted by others one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally. Either deliberately, Ānanda, one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally; or undeliberately one generates that bodily volitional formation conditioned by which pleasure and pain arise internally.
This paragraph seems to possibly say:

1. Intention (craving) & kamma (bhava) lead to happiness & suffering. Note: the sutta sounds mundane & not about Nibbana.

2. Kayasankhara is the cause for kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu to arise.

3. For example, when prompted by another (which is sense-contact; 6th link), thinking (abhisaṅkharoti) generates a kaya sankhara (breathing). For example, you are sitting quietly and another person makes a loud noise, causing your mind to be shocked & your breathing (kayasankhara) to become rapid & agitated. This causes you to jump up, with your body, and hit the other person, with your body (which is kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu). Hitting the other person creates suffering. Here, kayasankhara causes kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­ to arise.

4. For example, if like Sariputta, your breathing (kayasankhara) remained calm when a Yakka gave you a blow on the head, kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­ would not arise. You would have no intention (kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­) to hit the Yakka back; out of anger & revenge.
theY wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:51 am
So, both sutta not conflict each other.
If the Buddha used "kāya­sañ­ceta­nā­hetu" & "kāyasaṅkhāraṃ" to refer to the same phenomena, this seems to be a conflict.
theY wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:51 am
The actually problem is the reader has not enough knowledge to read it.
Maybe too much book knowledge. When I visited Buddhadasa's monastery in Thailand, in the art gallery, there was a painting of a skeleton crawling over many dhamma books. A person died reading too many dhamma books; never knowing Nibbana. Have you considered starting a topic about MN 139?

:smile:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2962
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Nothing conflict between MN 44 and SN 12.2 in abhidhamma

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:42 am

theY wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:51 am
And kāyasaṅkhāra causes a life still alive, not dead
Kāyasaṅkhāra causes a life still alive but, in Buddha-Dhamma, has a more important meaning, which Ajahn Buddhadasa (พุทธทาส) explained:
In step three, the aim is to experience all kaya, all bodies (sabbakayamipatisamveti). The essence of this step is to feel all bodies while breathing in and breathing out. We already began to observe while practicing the beginning steps that the breath is the conditioner of our flesh-and-blood bodies.

The specific aim of this step is that we must know that there are two groups and that one group conditions, nourishes, and sup­ports the other group. The breath group nourishes the body group. Actually, we have experienced this since the beginning of Anapanasati practice. Earlier, we experienced that when the breath is coarse the flesh-body gets aggravated and when the breath is fine the body calms down. We have observed these facts since practicing steps one and two. In this step, we emphasize this secret until it becomes absolutely clear. There are two groups. One of them con­ditions and nourishes the other. Know the difference between them.

We are making the inner, mental experience that these bodies condition each other in this way. The body which is the causal conditioner is given the name kaya-sankhara (body conditioner) to distinguish it from the other, the one effected by the conditioning, the “conditioned body." Work on this fact in the mind, seeing it as if it were physically tangible. See the one group condition and nurture the other. See them arise together, fall together, coarsen together, become fine together, grow comfortable together, and become uncomfortable together. Realize how intimately they are connected.

Study the three meanings of sankhara in this body of ours. There is no need to study it in books or in a theoretical way.

https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Bhik ... athing.htm
ตอนที่ ๑ กำหนดลมหายใจยาว
ตอนที่ ๒ กำหนดลมหายใจสั้น
ตอนที่ ๓ กำหนดความที่ลมหายใจนี้ปรุงแต่งกาย หรือสัมพันธ์กันอยู่กับกาย
ตอนที่ ๔ กำหนดลมหายใจเพื่อบังคับให้ลมหายใจนั้นละเอียด ให้มันปรุงแต่งกายแต่ละชนิดที่ละเอียด
ทบทวนใหม่อีกครั้งหนึ่งว่า กายานุปัสสนาสติปัฏฐานแบบอานาปานสตินั้นแบ่งออกเป็น ๔ ตอน
ตอน ๑ กำหนดลมหายใจยาว
ตอน ๒ กำหนดลมหายใจสั้น
ตอน ๓ กำหนดความที่ลมหายใจนั้นแหละเป็นของปรุงแต่งกายหรือสัมพันธ์อยู่กับกาย
ตอน ๔ ทำให้ลมหายใจนั้นละเอียด เพื่อปรุงแต่งกายชนิดละเอียด

:smile:

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2962
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Nothing conflict between MN 44 and SN 12.2 in abhidhamma

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:52 am

theY wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:51 am
[*]effect-cittasaṅkhāra, saññā&vedanā-mind's factor, are the effects of mind and the other mind factors...
Explained here, in the suttas:
When one is touched by a pleasant feeling, if one delights in it, welcomes it, and remains holding to it, then the underlying tendency to lust lies within one. When one is touched by a painful feeling, if one sorrows, grieves and laments, weeps beating one’s breast and becomes distraught, then the underlying tendency to aversion lies within one. When one is touched by a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, if one does not understand as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance lies within one.

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn148
Ajahn Buddhadasa (พุทธทาส) explained here, from 11:25:


Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests