The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

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Coëmgenu
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The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:44 pm

"The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment."

What does the title of this thread mean? This belief in Abhidhamma is more often criticized than praised on Buddhist internet forums. I would like provide a counterbalance to that, ideally with this thread. I would like to see an Abhidhammika's insider-perspective on these two questions, more specifically:

1) "why" does the arising of the four paths endure for only one mind-moment, as in, how is this explained to occur?

and 2) what does this mean for practitioners?

and, if you will forgive me to be greedy for information, where can I find relevant sections of the Abhidhammatthasaṇgaha, or another text you would advise, that deal with this?

Thank you for your time :anjali: .
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:57 am

Each of these four supramundane stages involves two phases. One is the "path" (magga) that eradicates the fetters, the other is the "fruit" (phala), moments of supramundane consciousness that result from the path, made possible by the path's work of eradication. The fruit is the enjoyment made available by the work of the path. The fruit can be entered and enjoyed many times after the appropriate path has been reached. The noble disciple determines to enter the fruit, then develops insight until he does so. The highest fruit is the fruit of arahantship. The arahant knows with certainty that his mind is devoid of defilements. He has penetrated the Four Noble Truths. He becomes neither despondent nor elated through contact with the eight worldly conditions — gain and loss, honor and dishonor, happiness and misery, praise and blame. He is free from sorrow, stainless, and safe. "Free from sorrow" because he no more weeps and laments; "stainless" because he has no more defilements; "safe" because there is no more birth for him.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el322.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:12 pm

Vipassanā (insight meditation) is magga (path), too. Because magga-bhāvanā (medittion/development) is sīla,samādhi, and bhāvanā. So, magga is not just one moment.

But one mind moment is ariya's comments about their enlightened moment. You can see in ādittapariyāya sutta, too.
"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate (virajjati[=no rāga=notaṇhā]/magga). Through dispassion, he is fully released (=vimutti[ta-suffix=past verb]/phala). With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released ' (vimuttamīti ñāṇam hoti/paccavekkhṇañāṇaṃ). He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Practitioner practices lokiya-magga, maybe long as whole life period, without any break to be an expert, ariya. So after his lokiya-magga-practiced complete perfectly, enlightened lokuttara-magga, he will become to be ariya (professor of destroyed kilesa). And after lokuttara-magga-enlightenment, he must content ariya-skill in every moment of him, because he practiced perfectly completely. every thinking of him must has perfect sīla, perfect samādhi, and perfect paññā. However, we can destroy kilesa just one time per enlighten step (4 ariya). So magga can arise to destroy kilesa just one time per path. After that no that destroyed-kilesa anymore. So magga have not arise anymore, too, because of nothing to do--no destroyed-kilesa to destroy, after each path enlightenment. Therefore, there is just one mind-moment of each magga, each path, while enlightening.[/quote]

So, in sangaha wrote: https://ballwarapol.github.io/sangaha/c ... tm?#10-215
Screenshot from 2017-09-07 22-11-27.png
Screenshot from 2017-09-07 22-11-27.png (41.97 KiB) Viewed 674 times
For the other references, (however I think that sutta that I quoted above is clear because all references wrote follow to above sutta):

~950th buddhist era:
See 2 last chapters of visuddhimagga, especially sotāpannapuggalakathā in purification by Knowledge and Vision:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... on2011.pdf

~230th buddhist era:
parihānikatha in kathavatthu-abhidhamma, because if kilesa of arahanta can arise again, so his magga can arise again, too, to destroy that rebirth kilesa.

Many references appear in commentary, too. But above reference is the most perfect.
Last edited by theY on Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:34 am, edited 4 times in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Saengnapha
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:22 am

Coëmgenu wrote:"The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment."

What does the title of this thread mean? This belief in Abhidhamma is more often criticized than praised on Buddhist internet forums. I would like provide a counterbalance to that, ideally with this thread. I would like to see an Abhidhammika's insider-perspective on these two questions, more specifically:

1) "why" does the arising of the four paths endure for only one mind-moment, as in, how is this explained to occur?

and 2) what does this mean for practitioners?

and, if you will forgive me to be greedy for information, where can I find relevant sections of the Abhidhammatthasaṇgaha, or another text you would advise, that deal with this?

Thank you for your time :anjali: .
Can you quote the passage in the Abhidhamma where this is stated, please?
Can you also quote a criticism that has been leveled at this statement?

I would like to see the context of both so I can further understand what the criticisms are all about.

Thanks.......

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Thu Sep 14, 2017 2:29 am

I have more understanding in the question, so I re-edit to add more reference again. In the past, I thought the question owner asked for abhidhammatthasaṇgaha's page. I am sorry.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Saengnapha
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:21 am

theY wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:12 pm
Vipassanā (insight meditation) is magga (path), too. Because magga-bhāvanā (medittion/development) is sīla,samādhi, and bhāvanā. So, magga is not just one moment.

But one mind moment is ariya's comments about their enlightened moment. You can see in ādittapariyāya sutta, too.
"He grows disenchanted with the intellect, disenchanted with ideas, disenchanted with consciousness at the intellect, disenchanted with contact at the intellect. And whatever there is that arises in dependence on contact at the intellect, experienced as pleasure, pain or neither-pleasure-nor-pain: He grows disenchanted with that too. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate (virajjati[=no rāga=notaṇhā]/magga). Through dispassion, he is fully released (=vimutti[ta-suffix=past verb]/phala). With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released ' (vimuttamīti ñāṇam hoti/paccavekkhṇañāṇaṃ). He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Practitioner practices lokiya-magga without any break to be an expert. So after his magga complete perfectly, practitioner, who become to be ariya (professor), must content ariya-skill in every moment of him. every thinking of him must has perfect sīla, perfect samādhi, and perfect paññā. However, we can destroy kilesa just one time per enlighten step (4 ariya). So magga can arise to destroy kilesa just one time per path. After that no that kilesa anymore. So magga have not arise anymore, too, because of nothing to do--no kilesa to destroy.
This sutta is one of the most important explanations for path and fruit that I've seen. Very concise. Disenchantment, dispassion=Release. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

justindesilva
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by justindesilva » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:48 am

In meditation we go through the janas along with mind moments and in stages. We go through vitakka .Vihara.piti. Sukha as we develop. I had found a good explanation in the web
The- wanderling.com
Please read it.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:59 pm

This sutta is one of the most important explanations for path and fruit that I've seen. Very concise. Disenchantment, dispassion=Release. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
If you want sutta (that is - valid) explanation for Paths and Fruits, you should read this (SN 48.18):

“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith … the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties.
“One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of arahantship; if still weaker, one is a nonreturner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of nonreturning; if still weaker, one is a once-returner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of oncereturning; if still weaker, one is a stream-enterer; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry.


And this one too (MN 142):

One gives a gift to the Tath›gata, accomplished and fully enlightened; this is the first kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to a paccekabuddha; this is the second kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to an arahant disciple of the Tath›gata; this is the third kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of arahantship; this is the fourth kind of personal offering. One
gives a gift to a non-returner; this is the fifth kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of non-return; this is the sixth kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to a once-returner; this is the seventh kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of once-return; this is the eighth kind of personal offering. One
gives a gift to a stream-enterer; this is the ninth kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of stream-entry.


:reading:

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by robertk » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:09 pm

In the Atthasalini - The expositor PTS (translator : maung tin).
P58. Triplets in the Matika
"



The Discourse on LOKUTTARA (transcendental).



"He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three planes [includes kusala such as giving as well as all levels of "mundane" jhana]"

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:00 am

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:59 pm
This sutta is one of the most important explanations for path and fruit that I've seen. Very concise. Disenchantment, dispassion=Release. Thank you for bringing this to my attention.
If you want sutta (that is - valid) explanation for Paths and Fruits, you should read this (SN 48.18):

“Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith … the faculty of wisdom. These are the five faculties.
“One who has completed and fulfilled these five faculties is an arahant. If they are weaker than that, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of arahantship; if still weaker, one is a nonreturner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of nonreturning; if still weaker, one is a once-returner; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of oncereturning; if still weaker, one is a stream-enterer; if still weaker, one is practising for the realization of the fruit of stream-entry.


And this one too (MN 142):

One gives a gift to the Tath›gata, accomplished and fully enlightened; this is the first kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to a paccekabuddha; this is the second kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to an arahant disciple of the Tath›gata; this is the third kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of arahantship; this is the fourth kind of personal offering. One
gives a gift to a non-returner; this is the fifth kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of non-return; this is the sixth kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to a once-returner; this is the seventh kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of once-return; this is the eighth kind of personal offering. One
gives a gift to a stream-enterer; this is the ninth kind of personal offering. One gives a gift to one who has entered upon the way to the realisation of the fruit of stream-entry.


:reading:
Too abstract for me, sir.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:34 pm

Abstract? These texts show that Path and Fruit are not some "momentary states", but long periods of spiritual training .) This is why "one who gained a path" is one person, while "one who gained a fruit" is another one. And this is why Buddha says about "4 pairs" and "8 individuals" when speaking about ariya-sangha.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:07 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:34 pm
Abstract? These texts show that Path and Fruit are not some "momentary states", but long periods of spiritual training .) This is why "one who gained a path" is one person, while "one who gained a fruit" is another one. And this is why Buddha says about "4 pairs" and "8 individuals" when speaking about ariya-sangha.
I have a hard time following texts like this. I see the importance of ethical behavior united with wisdom insight but some of the Buddhist dialectic is not how I think about all this. The sutta I linked to speaks the language of my experience clearly. Disenchantment and dispassion are both fruit and path to me.

Maybe you can help me out here. I still don't understand the thread title. Where does this appear and what does it mean?

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:53 pm

Maybe you can help me out here. I still don't understand the thread title. Where does this appear and what does it mean?
The "paths" in Dhamma (even in abhidhammic one) mean these 4 paths: to stream-entry, to once-returning, to non-returning, and to arahantship. Fruits mean 4 corresponding spiritual results: gaining of stream-entry, etc.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:56 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:53 pm
Maybe you can help me out here. I still don't understand the thread title. Where does this appear and what does it mean?
The "paths" in Dhamma (even in abhidhammic one) mean these 4 paths: to stream-entry, to once-returning, to non-returning, and to arahantship. Fruits mean 4 corresponding spiritual results: gaining of stream-entry, etc.
And, 'endures for only one mind-moment'?

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 am

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:59 pm
If you want sutta (that is - valid) explanation for Paths and Fruits, you should read this (SN 48.18):
While we talking about the end of meditation and the end of sutta, you showing us the meditating and the middle of sutta.

The question asking about magga-vithī, but you showing us vipassanā-vithī, why? Because you never recite and memorize tipitaka-pāli.

Read this carefuly:
Vipassanā (insight meditation) is magga (path), too. Because magga-bhāvanā (medittion/development) is sīla,samādhi, and bhāvanā. So, magga is not just one moment.

But one mind moment is ariya's comments about their enlightened moment. You can see in ādittapariyāya sutta, too.

Practitioner practices lokiya-magga, maybe long as whole life period, without any break to be an expert, ariya. So after his lokiya-magga-practiced complete perfectly, enlightened lokuttara-magga, practitioner, he can become to be ariya (professor of destroyed kilesa). After lokuttara-magga-enlightenment, he must content ariya-skill in every moment of him, because he practiced perfectly completely. every thinking of him must has perfect sīla, perfect samādhi, and perfect paññā. However, we can destroy kilesa just one time per enlighten step (4 ariya). So magga can arise to destroy kilesa just one time per path. After that no that destroyed-kilesa anymore. So magga have not arise anymore, too, because of nothing to do--no destroyed-kilesa to destroy, after each path enlightenment. Therefore, there is just one mind-moment of each magga, each path, while enlightening.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Saengnapha
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:40 am

theY wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 am
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:59 pm
If you want sutta (that is - valid) explanation for Paths and Fruits, you should read this (SN 48.18):
While we talking about the end of meditation and the end of sutta, you showing us the meditating and the middle of sutta.

The question asking about magga-vithī, but you showing us vipassanā-vithī, why? Because you never recite and memorize tipitaka-pāli.

Read this carefuly:
Vipassanā (insight meditation) is magga (path), too. Because magga-bhāvanā (medittion/development) is sīla,samādhi, and bhāvanā. So, magga is not just one moment.

But one mind moment is ariya's comments about their enlightened moment. You can see in ādittapariyāya sutta, too.

Practitioner practices lokiya-magga, maybe long as whole life period, without any break to be an expert, ariya. So after his lokiya-magga-practiced complete perfectly, enlightened lokuttara-magga, practitioner, he can become to be ariya (professor of destroyed kilesa). After lokuttara-magga-enlightenment, he must content ariya-skill in every moment of him, because he practiced perfectly completely. every thinking of him must has perfect sīla, perfect samādhi, and perfect paññā. However, we can destroy kilesa just one time per enlighten step (4 ariya). So magga can arise to destroy kilesa just one time per path. After that no that destroyed-kilesa anymore. So magga have not arise anymore, too, because of nothing to do--no destroyed-kilesa to destroy, after each path enlightenment. Therefore, there is just one mind-moment of each magga, each path, while enlightening.
Thank you for the continued explanation. It is clearer now what the title of the thread means.

One mystery remains, though. What is theY? :D

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by 2600htz » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm

Hello:

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:47 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm
Hello:

It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
because i still don´t understand how can they justify that view.

Regards.
Which part needs explaining?

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by perkele » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:46 pm

2600htz wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:03 pm
It would be very interesting to see what abhidhamma followers think about the Suttas posted by Zom,
I think theY's answer was about this:
theY wrote:
Sun Nov 05, 2017 3:09 am
Practitioner practices lokiya-magga, maybe long as whole life period, without any break to be an expert, ariya. So after his lokiya-magga-practiced complete perfectly, enlightened lokuttara-magga, practitioner, he can become to be ariya (professor of destroyed kilesa). After lokuttara-magga-enlightenment, he must content ariya-skill in every moment of him, because he practiced perfectly completely.
(emphasis changed by me)

I do not understand it completely, but it seems the gist of it is that in Abhidhamma there is a distinction between lokiya-magga (the "worldly" path, or something like that) and lokuttara-magga (the supramundane path), and it is the latter which apparently supposedly only lasts for one mind-moment, at the breakthrough to the next stage of enlightenment, and directly followed by the phala "fruition" moment.

So, if I understand correctly, the lokiya-magga is a long time period, in which the practicioner strives for the next breakthrough, and the lokuttara-magga, comprised of a single mind-moment, followed by its culmination, another single mind moment called "phala" or "fruition".

Not sure if I have understood it correctly. What I am a bit puzzled about now is: Why should the lokuttara-magga moment come only at the end of the period of striving towards it (and towards it's "phala", which from the aspirant's perspective, can hardly be distinguished at all as a goal then). It would make more sense to me if the lokuttara-magga came at the beginning, as the "motivation" for an extended period of striving, - the lokiya-magga, - and then at some point its "fruition", the phala moment, followed immediately perhaps by the next lokuttara-magga as the "motivation" to carry on (if that last phala was not already arahatta-phala).

Maybe theY can explain this. But I think I have to break it down into some simpler English for it to be understandable:

TheY, can you explain this?

Why is it this sequence:
1 lokiya-magga (long period)
2 lokuttara-magga (one moment)
3 phala (one moment)
(4 times... for sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahat)

Why not this?
1 lokuttara-magga (one moment)
2 lokiya-magga (long period)
3 phala (one moment)
(4 times... for sotapanna, sakadagami, anagami, arahat)

Where is saddhanussari or dhammanussari (practicing to become sotapanna) in this sequence? (at which number?)

Thanks. :anjali:

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:59 pm

The question asking about magga-vithī, but you showing us vipassanā-vithī, why? Because you never recite and memorize tipitaka-pāli.
I'm showing you what is said about 4 paths and 4 fruits in the suttas. Nowhere there you will find another kind of explanation, like "one-moment-path". There is, for example, such thing as "a path to non-returning", and no way this is a "one mind moment", but instead this is a long period of time. This is very clear if you read what I cited carefully. The Buddha says: "the four pairs, the eight individuals — they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world".

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