The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

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theY
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:58 pm

zerotime wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:13 am
theY wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 am
if that bhikkhu enlightening nibbāna as sotāpanna, and if then that sotāpanna go ahead to practice lokiya-magga for sakadāgāmi-ariya's enlightenment.
Do you know texts or works summarizing that practice of lokiya-magga at that point?. Curious to know how the practice can be focused at that point
If you want to know the procedure of anāgami's lokiya-magga:

The sotapanna's lokiya-magga-procedure and anāgāmi's 's lokuttara-magga-procedure are the same, anicca-dukkha-anattā insight meditation.

The differences between each ariya's step are the left of: meditation's object/kilesa/time ot reborn/unique ability/etc.

If you want to see the reference:

You just see dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, that made aññākoṇḍañña-pañcavaggī enlightened sotāpanna-magga&phala, and anattalakkhaṇa-sutta, that whole pañcavaggī enlightened arhatta-magga&phala.

You can see those both sutta taught the same content about 5 aggregates' arising and vanishing.

So, the difference is skill level of those both suttas' listener, not the procedure.

when you play mmorpg game, although today you fighting with the same monster in the same map of yesterday, but today your level maybe more than yesterday.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Zom
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm

lokiya-magga=training of no skill practitioner.

lokuttara-magga=graduation of practitioner's training.
This is the first time I hear such explanation -)
Anyway, even if it is correct, it still sounds weird - the name "lokiya magga" for the name of actually world-transcending noble path 8-) I wonder, what is the reason for making such a confusion.
Haven't read these yet, but they've been on my to do list for a while, and may be of interest here:

The Nature of the Eight-factored Ariya, Lokuttara Magga in the Suttas Compared to the Pali Commentarial Idea of it as Momentary

The Saṅgha of Noble Sāvakas, with Particular Reference to their Trainee Member, the Person 'Practising for the Realization of the Stream-entry-fruit'
The first one I can't open, but the second paper is interesting, thanks .) There he cites, by the way, MN 117, and with this new perspective of "lokiya magga" as actual "lokuttara" one, I wonder how abidhammists can explain it, where the statement concerning the path is quite opposite.

And yes, this is what he writes there:

It seems that the Abhidhamma, and certainly the commentaries, in effect see the paṭipanna person as one who ‘is practising’ for the realization of the stream-entry-fruit only in the sense of ‘has been practising, but has now momentarily brought this to perfection’, rather than one who is currently practising for this. Or if one takes paṭipajjati, as meaning ‘to enter upon (a path)’, then the later tradition sees such a path as the momentary magga, while the suttas do not seem to talk in these terms. In the later tradition, any actual practising is done prior to the magga moment, which is immediately followed by stream-entry. When AN II 157 talks of ‘the magga is born (sañjāyati). He now pursues, develops and cultivates that magga, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the latent tendencies eliminated’, its commentary (AN-a III 143) says ‘there is no pursuit etc of
the magga that lasts one mind-moment, but bringing into being the second magga etc: of that, surely it is said “he pursues, develops and cultivates”’


And, also of interest there, is the Buddhaghosa's explanation on MN 142:

A gift given to him is surely of great fruit beyond that. But how is one able to give a gift to one endowed with the
magga? It is possible. A keen insight-practitioner, having taken his bowl and robes goes out for alms. Taking
the bowl from his hands when he is standing at the door of a house, they place
solid food (in it). At that moment there is the arising of the magga
for that monk. This is called giving a gift to one endowed with the
magga . Or then he is seated in a sitting-hall. People going (there) put solid food in (his) bowl. At that moment
there is the arising of the magga . This gift is called a gift to one endowed with the
magga. Or then of one seated in the sitting-hall, upāsaka s take the bowl, take it to their own house and place solid food (in it). At that moment there is the arising of the magga. This gift is called a gift to one endowed with the magga.


So, theY, is Buddhaghosa simply wrong here? He doesn't seem to maintain the idea if "lokiya-magga" here.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:54 am

Nothing difference between suttanta and abhidhamma and commentary, when you deeply understood pali language.

Where is abidhammists' explanation? I found just the pāli's relationship. Abidhamma is just a dictionary that suttanta-memorizer, sāriputta-mahāsāvaka, made. So, I can explain below without any abhidhamma reference. But it looks like abhidhamma view, because nothing difference in main-content between suttanta and abhidhamma.

The difference in main-content between suttanta and abhidhamma is just the under standard tipitaka study, not recite whole tipitaka-pāli, not memorize whole tipitaka-pāli, not taught by professor who recited and memorized tipitaka.

See, ancient tipitaka study system for more detail.

All commentary teachers must done every courses inside that link.
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm
lokiya-magga=training of no skill practitioner.

lokuttara-magga=graduation of practitioner's training.
This is the first time I hear such explanation -)
Anyway, even if it is correct, it still sounds weird - the name "lokiya magga" for the name of actually world-transcending noble path 8-) I wonder, what is the reason for making such a confusion.
Loka means breaking. Loka refer to 5 aggregates, because 5 arose aggregates (=12 āyatana) must vanish, breaking.

Iya means dependent.

Utara means independent, above, transcending.

Lokiya means (5) clinging-aggregates that depending on the other (5) clinging-aggregates.

Lokuttara means nibbāna and unclinging-aggregates that depending on nibbāna [4 lokuttara-magga + 4 lokuttara-phala].

So, you can see every words that I explained above in loka sutta.
Haven't read these yet, but they've been on my to do list for a while, and may be of interest here:

The Nature of the Eight-factored Ariya, Lokuttara Magga in the Suttas Compared to the Pali Commentarial Idea of it as Momentary

The Saṅgha of Noble Sāvakas, with Particular Reference to their Trainee Member, the Person 'Practising for the Realization of the Stream-entry-fruit'
The first one I can't open, but the second paper is interesting, thanks .) There he cites, by the way, MN 117, and with this new perspective of "lokiya magga" as actual "lokuttara" one, I wonder how abidhammists can explain it, where the statement concerning the path is quite opposite.
I even thought like that, when I was young and read translated sutta without pāli knowledge and without pāli-reciting&memorizing.

But the mahācattārīsakasutta-pāli is:
atthi bhikkhave sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā; atthi bhikkhave sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā.
Translation:
Bhikkhu! there is right view with defilements, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; Bhikkhu! there is right view that is noble, without defilements, transcendent, a factor of the path.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Grammar of it:
  • atthi (main-verb)
  • bhikkhave (vocative)
  • sammādiṭṭhi (nominative)
  • sāsavā (adjective of sammādiṭṭhi)
  • puññabhāgiyā (adjective of sammādiṭṭhi)
  • upadhivepakkā (adjective of sammādiṭṭhi);
  • atthi bhikkhave sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā (this sentence is the opposite of previous sentence).
So the this 3 words: sāsavā puññabhāgiyā and upadhivepakkā, are the synonym of each other.

Sāsavā-word
origins are kilesa-causes of sammādiṭṭhi: kāma-āsava, bhava-āsava, diṭṭhi-āsava, avijjā-āsava.

Puññabhāgiyā-word origins are kamma-causes of sammādiṭṭhi: wholesome [merit] and unwholesome [demerit]: saṇkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda/kamma-bhava-paṭiccasamuppāda.

Upadhivepakkā-word origins are vipāka-effects of sammādiṭṭhi: clinging-aggregates (clinging: kāma-upādāna, bhava-upādāna, diṭṭhi-upādāna, avijjā-upādāna. aggregates: rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa)

Obviously, mahācattārīsaka-sutta showing sāsavā sammādiṭṭhi as paticcasamuppāda.

So, in nibbedhika-sutta:
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, āsavānaṃ vipāko? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, avijjāgato tajjaṃ tajjaṃ attabhāvaṃ abhinibbatteti puññabhāgiyaṃ vā apuññabhāgiyaṃ vā, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, āsavānaṃ vipāko.

“And what is the fruit of defilements (āsavānaṃ vipāko)? Ignoring (in defilements) produces an existence, that was produced by defilements (such as avijā-āsava, etc), that was produced by merit or demerit (puññabhāgiyā). This is called the fruit of defilements.
https://suttacentral.net/en/an6.63
Therefore, sāsavā/puññabhāgiyā /upadhivepakkā sammādiṭṭhi = sammādiṭṭhi that was produced by defilements & by merit or by demerit, and produces it's defilement-co-produced fruits.

---------------------------------------

Why you have to quote too much commentary. Useless.

Just pāli is enough. If you recited&memorized&understand pāli words' relationship, no need commentary. It is the same.

I am a trustful buddhist in tipitaka, commentary, and abhidhamma. But "where is abhidhamma in this my reply?".

---------------------------------------

The translated tipitaka in thai and english are imperfect, lost many pāli relationship. But tipitaka-pāli is perfect. They link each other, no any big conflict between them. But the under standard tipitaka students, especially the western professors, trying to make them conflict with each other pitaka, because of their under standard tipitaka study system.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:36 am

For my every replies, I have a very terrible english, and conversation manner. So you can ask me back unlimited, if you doubt on some words.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:02 pm

You still didn't answer - do you think Ven. Buddhaghosa is wrong in his explanation of MN 142?

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by justindesilva » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:48 am

Buddhism is like an ocean of knowledge in damma. Trying to understand things on the ocean bed is not possible. So it is best to understand what we can from the damma that can be grasped.
As for me I am trying to understand the basics of budda damma and then follow the arya ashtangika marga with meditation which I believe is one of the best. If we understand the meanings of anitya dukka anatma properly and follow the elementary five precepts we can have a good start. I have often seen people trying to understand in depth buddhism without at times observing even the difference between mind and thought.
The next thing is to understand paticca samuppada that will lead one to understand proper damma which is within one self.
Last edited by justindesilva on Sun Nov 19, 2017 11:07 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:23 am

justindesilva wrote:
Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:48 am
Buddhism is like an ocean of knowledge in damma. Trying to understand things on the ocean bed is not possible. So it is best to understand what we can from the damma that can be grasped.
As for me I am trying to understand the basics of budda damma and then follow the arya ashtangika marga with meditation which I believe is one of the best. If we understand the meanings of anitya dukka anatma properly and follow the elementary five precepts we can have a good start. I have often seen people trying to understand in depth buddhism without at times observing even the difference between mind and thought.
The next thing is to understand paticca samples that will lead one to understand proper damma which is within one self.
It might be good to start out with the Pali words and their correct interpretation instead of the Sanskrit which will often have a different meaning. For example, anatma, which is not atma, or soul/self. The Pali doesn't posit a soul/self. These are Hindu concepts that have crept into Buddhism from poor translations.

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zerotime
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by zerotime » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:47 pm

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm
It seems that the Abhidhamma, and certainly the commentaries, in effect see the paṭipanna person as one who ‘is practising’ for the realization of the stream-entry-fruit only in the sense of ‘has been practising, but has now momentarily brought this to perfection’, rather than one who is currently practising for this. Or if one takes paṭipajjati, as meaning ‘to enter upon (a path)’, then the later tradition sees such a path as the momentary magga, while the suttas do not seem to talk in these terms. In the later tradition, any actual practising is done prior to the magga moment, which is immediately followed by stream-entry. When AN II 157 talks of ‘the magga is born (sañjāyati). He now pursues, develops and cultivates that magga, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the latent tendencies eliminated’, its commentary (AN-a III 143) says ‘there is no pursuit etc of
the magga that lasts one mind-moment, but bringing into being the second magga etc: of that, surely it is said “he pursues, develops and cultivates”’
M.Sayadaw explain some things in this topic inside "Manual of Insight", regarding the difference between cultivating the fruit or the path to make some differences. And it seems logical, because when there is cultivation for the fruit, still there is not a real cultivation for the path in the sense to put an end to fermentations. And for that reason (or at least I understand that) he explain the problem of the time as something belonging to those who already are in the stream, because they already know the fruit and then they can start a resolution in dependence of that.

First, he cites first the MN 43.28

"Friend, there are three conditions for the persistence of the
signless deliverance of mind: non-attention to all signs and
attention to the signless element, and the prior determination
[of its duration]."


If a noble one wishes to become absorbed in the attainment of fruition, he or she should determine a time limit for the attainment in advance by resolving, “May the fruition attainment persist for such and such a period of time.” This period of time may be five minutes, ten minutes, fifteen minutes, half an hour, one hour, two hours, or longer. While practicing, however, one should just continue observing phenomena without exerting too much effort or giving further thought to this resolve. When the insight knowledge of equanimity toward phenomena matures, the mind then becomes absorbed in the cessation of conditioned phenomena for the time period that was previously determined. Thus the duration of the attainment of fruition persists for the time period that has been determined.
However, it is only likely that the duration [of the attainment of fruition] will persist for the whole period of time that has been determined for those whose knowledge is sharp and penetrating. It is likely that it will not persist for the whole period of time that has been determined for those whose knowledge is not sharp and penetrating. And it very often does not persist for long if one enters it without making a prior determination."


he add some other recommendations depending if there is a cultivation for the fruit or the path.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by zerotime » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:49 pm

theY wrote:
Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:36 am
For my every replies, I have a very terrible english, and conversation manner.
no offense in your words!. Thanks for your contributions

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:38 am

I am sorry for too late answering, I have to use many days to translate your english quote.
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm
its commentary (AN-a III 143) says ‘there is no pursuit etc of the magga that lasts one mind-moment, but bringing into being the second magga etc: of that, surely it is said “he pursues, develops and cultivates”’[/i]
Wrong translation, I don't know why you look so believe in that too much bias comment by under buddhist standard teacher.

It must translate as:
"maggo sañjāyati" sentence means Making 1st lokuttara-magga arise. there is no develops etc of the one-mind-moment-sotāpatti-(lokuttara)-magga, but bringing into being the 2nd (lokuttara)-magga etc: of that, surely it is said “he pursues, develops and cultivates.

maggo sañjāyatīti paṭhamo lokuttaramaggo nibbattatiฯ so taṃ magganti ekacittakkhaṇikamaggassa āsevanādīni nāma natthi, dutiyamaggādayo pana uppādento tameva āsevati bhāveti bahulīkarotīti vuccatiฯ
http://84000.org/tipitaka/read/roman_re ... =21&A=4259
Because in paṭṭhāna-abhidhamma-pitaka, āsevana-paccaya, previous-done-cause, can makes, develops, it's effects after it's arose. lokuttara-magga never arise before 1st lokuttara-magga arising, so no any previous lokuttara-magga to makes, develops, 1st lokuttara-magga.

However, in paṭṭhāna-abhidhamma-pitaka, also said lokiya-magga can make lokuttara-magga arise by being āsevana-paccaya, previous-done-cause, too. So magga are not just one mind-moment in abhidhamma, just the graduating magga, lokuttara-magga, is one mind-moment for each enlightening. Therefore, your quote:
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm
then the later tradition sees such a path as the momentary magga, while the suttas do not seem to talk in these terms
is a very misunderstood in abhidhamma.

Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm
And, also of interest there, is the Buddhaghosa's explanation on MN 142:
Buddhaghosa told at introduction of every commentary that he was just an translator, he just tryed to translate commentary back from siṅhala language.

Editing/changing the canon are very serious topic for mahāvihāra-theravāda. No one can do it, especially tipitaka-memorizer like Buddhaghosa. Just graduated bhikkhuparisūpaṭṭthāpaka course monk can be a monk's teacher. Then every teachers can make their own canon that compatible with tipitaka. The others, not graduated or make canon out of tipitaka, are not accept by saṅgha in a, very big, monastery to teach monks or make their own canon. Anyway, no one can edit the ancient canons.

Although, there are some siṅhala teachers' comment in commentary, but the authors separated the ancient comments and the siṅhala teachers' comment clearly. If abhidhamma or commentary tried to edit or to modify any tipitaka or any commentary between 1st-950 buddhist era, I am very sure that today we can not separate between tipitaka and commentary or between siṅhala's comment and ancient chambhūdīpa's comment. But we still can do because editing/changing the canon are very serious topic for mahāvihāra-theravāda. No one can do it.

Why it is very serious? because at 1st saṅgāyanā, the Sangha made the unanimous decision to keep all vinaya rules. And in the commentary make it as the rule to every buddhist people to deny tipitaka/commentary editing. Just new author canon with clearly define as a new canon accept.
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm
A gift given to him is surely of great fruit beyond that. But how is one able to give a gift to one endowed with the
magga? It is possible. A keen insight-practitioner, having taken his bowl and robes goes out for alms. Taking
the bowl from his hands when he is standing at the door of a house, they place
solid food (in it). At that moment there is the arising of the magga
for that monk. This is called giving a gift to one endowed with the
magga . Or then he is seated in a sitting-hall. People going (there) put solid food in (his) bowl. At that moment
there is the arising of the magga . This gift is called a gift to one endowed with the
magga. Or then of one seated in the sitting-hall, upāsaka s take the bowl, take it to their own house and place solid food (in it). At that moment there is the arising of the magga. This gift is called a gift to one endowed with the magga.


So, theY, is Buddhaghosa simply wrong here? He doesn't seem to maintain the idea if "lokiya-magga" here.
I explained this before in this topic, please reread and ask from that explaination.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:26 am

theY wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:38 am
Why it is very serious? because at 1st saṅgāyanā, the Sangha made the unanimous decision to keep all vinaya rules. And in the commentary make it as the rule to every buddhist people to deny tipitaka/commentary editing. Just new author canon with clearly define as a new canon accept.
Well, some people look at the fact that some Pāli Canons include, for instance, the Milindapañha and some do not, as a mark to potentially question the canon. The Abhidhamma, in its present textual form (to say nothing of what it was as an oral teaching), is from a slightly later period, but, its interpretation has been very free by those who introduce the dhamma to the West. Leading to some to question it entirely. For instance, the reliance on strictly only Abhidhammattasangaha instead of consulting the proper full Abhidhamma when introducing the West to what gets called "Abhidhamma".

I am not an Abhidhamma "true believer" so to speak. I do not reject it. I have not had the opportunity to be exposed to it. But there are many misconceptions in the West based on the above, IMO at least it seems.

"Momentariness", though, IMO, is the same emptiness that was described by the Venerable Nāgārjuna. And is quasi-substantiated by current theories in quantum field theory.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:40 am

I will post a link to the relevant data soon, as the latent subject of this thread is momentariness, but, most of our "memories" are fabricated on the spot. We literally merely "remember remembering".
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:37 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:26 am
theY wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:38 am
Why it is very serious? because at 1st saṅgāyanā, the Sangha made the unanimous decision to keep all vinaya rules. And in the commentary make it as the rule to every buddhist people to deny tipitaka/commentary editing. Just new author canon with clearly define as a new canon accept.
Well, some people look at the fact that some Pāli Canons include, for instance, the Milindapañha and some do not, as a mark to potentially question the canon. The Abhidhamma, in its present textual form (to say nothing of what it was as an oral teaching), is from a slightly later period, but, its interpretation has been very free by those who introduce the dhamma to the West. Leading to some to question it entirely. For instance, the reliance on strictly only Abhidhammattasangaha instead of consulting the proper full Abhidhamma when introducing the West to what gets called "Abhidhamma".

I am not an Abhidhamma "true believer" so to speak. I do not reject it. I have not had the opportunity to be exposed to it. But there are many misconceptions in the West based on the above, IMO at least it seems.
Have they ever studied commentary-pali before before wrote that?

Commentary wrote "sariputta studied abhidhamma from buddha then taught to his students". Why they still said "present textual form". Can't sariputta had his own author style?. Why they trying to distort the fact?

Another in my experience, asoka's magathī is very difference from pāli and commentary. So, abhidhamma, except the 4th canon, and commentary can not wrote in that time.
"Momentariness", though, IMO, is the same emptiness that was described by the Venerable Nāgārjuna. And is quasi-substantiated by current theories in quantum field theory.
Momentariness is in pāli, I already shown. Also, you can notice it in real life.

Abhidhamma just describing the reality of whole life's living that buddha said in suttanta. If they try to say "abhidhamma is out of suttanta", they must have a better way to link suttanta pali together without cutting any word out. But what I see is the western translation tipitaka cut many sutta off, why?

Why they still thinking that people in mahāvihāra tradition can work out of suttanta?
At buddha time, oral reciting&memorizing was the only one way to learn buddha's teaching. So this is the main cause to have commentary at that buddha generation.

Why?

Because Buddha taught each sutta for just students in front of him. So, when bh. ānanda, bh. sāriputta, and bh. upāli had learned oral teaching from buddha, then after buddha finished sutta, they must asked about state, situation, and meaning of each word in that sutta. This was called the great dhamma&vinaya commentary.

There are very less people in tipitaka who appear to be the most important commentators at buddha generation (A.N. Ekapuggala) : budhha, sāriputta (as dhamma teacher), upāli (as vinaya teacher). The others always listen&learned&asked from those important teachers.

The special teaching, about vinaya from buddha to upāli, were appear with upāli literature style in sikkhāpada-nidāna, sikkhāpada-vibhaṅga, parivāra, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

The special teaching, about dhamma from buddha to sāriputta, were appear with sāriputta literature style in abhidhamma-pitaka, K.N.Niddesa, K.N. Paṭisambhidāmagga, K.N. Buddhavaṃsa, K.N. Cariyāpitaka, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

Tipitaka strongly keep in pali language because of memorizing vinaya rule that force bhikkhu to memorize tipitaka before live alone or teach others.

But the great commentary didn't include in that vinaya rule, so when the time gone by, commentary loose pali form.

However, the great commentary translated to siṅhala after 3rd saṅgāyanā and translated back again (with extended comment from siṅhala-teachers) by buddhaghosa and many bhikkhus at 10th buddhist century.
Layers of pali literature already being in buddha-living-period.

There are many pali literature in buddha's time, such as buddha's literature, sāriputta's literature, mahākaccāna's literature, upāli's literature, etc. Because every mahāsāvaka have there own students.

But the most influential literature are buddha's literature and sāriputta's literature.

4 nikaya are buddha's literature, most of the others cannon are sāriputta's literature, because he is the one who buddha said "sāriputta is the best teacher who can teach like me". So everyone always go to meet sāriputta to listen his teaching, in his literature. But if someone need buddha's literature, they will go to meet buddha or ānanda, who is the best in sutta memorizing.

So, abhidhamma is difference from sutta, because commentary said "abhidhamma is memorized by sāriputta". And the other buddha's sāvaka book also have literature look like sāriputta's literature because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to learn dhamma with sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).

7 Vinaya-pitaka, is memorized by Upāli and his students. He also author some path of parivāra because buddha said in tipitaka (a.n.) "Upāli is the best vinaya-memorizer" (vinayadharānaṃ yadidaṃ upāliฯ).


Suttanta-pitaka is memorized by Ānanda. But in 1st saṅgayanā, 500 arahanta decide to separate whole sutta to 4 nikya.Then they gave each nikya to a group of 4 etadagga and his student to especially memorize it.


Who are the members, of group of 4 etadagga? Ānanda and his students (tn), Sāriputta's students (mn), Kassapa and his students (sn), Anuruddha and his students (an). (The others have learned and memorized dhamma, too, but buddha said "ānanda is the best", so everyone need him in 1st saṅgayanā).


Abhidhamma-pitaka, paṭisambhidāmagga, niddesa, buddhavaṃsa, cariyā-pitaka, except kathāvatthu of moggalliputta, is learned by Sāriputta, But then they are memorized by every arahanta, because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to listen Sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).


Origin: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0101a.att0.xml


http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/se ... Commentary
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Zom
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:51 pm

Buddhaghosa told at introduction of every commentary that he was just an translator, he just tryed to translate commentary back from siṅhala language.
So you are trying to say that he translated wrong theravadin commentary...?
because at 1st saṅgāyanā, the Sangha made the unanimous decision to keep all vinaya rules.
By the way, what is your opinion on that fact that Abhidhamma is not mentioned in the discriptions of both 1st and 2nd theravadin councils? If it was so important, this is a bit strange, don't you think? Especially when Abhidhamma is not mentioned in the suttas at all.
Another in my experience, asoka's magathī is very difference from pāli and commentary. So, abhidhamma, except the 4th canon, and commentary can not wrote in that time.
And, by the way, how will you explain that fact that language in Abidhamma differs a lot (from linguistic point of view) from that in Suttanta?

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:44 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:51 pm
because at 1st saṅgāyanā, the Sangha made the unanimous decision to keep all vinaya rules.
You are anti commentary, so you distort my translated history from commentary, by your opinion.
Zom wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:51 pm
By the way, what is your opinion on that fact that Abhidhamma is not mentioned in the discriptions of both 1st and 2nd theravadin councils? If it was so important, this is a bit strange, don't you think? Especially when Abhidhamma is not mentioned in the suttas at all.
I gave you the pāli link to seaching for the reason yourself, why you never read it?
Do you found your opinion by yourself from pāli canon?
Or you just believe your professors, but never read any abhidhamma-pāli and commentary-pāli by yourself?


In ancient commentary, that authored in buddha times and added more important information about each saṅgāyanā later until 4th saṅgāyanā (then added into siṅhala commentary instead, so it called ancient commentary), said:
  1. In 1st saṅgāyanā, bh. kassapa asked 4 suttanta with bh. ānanda:
    1. Before 1st saṅgāyana, vinaya was memorized & authored by bh. upāli and memorized by his students. Suttanta was memorized by bh. ānanda and his students. Abhidhamma was memorized & authored by bh. sāriputta and memorized by his students. After 1st saṅgāyanā, I explained before.
    2. So, we can see abhidhamma-styled suttanta by sāriputta's sutta that memorized by ānanda in suttas, such as D.N. saṅgītisutta, D.N. dasuttarasutta, etc.
    3. bh. ānanda, was one of not direct bh. sāriputta's students because in mahāgosiṅgasālasutta said ānanda and the other etadagga often go to sāriputta's school to listen sāriputta's teaching.
      • However, ānanda was not a computer, he cannot memorized 4 nikāya together with 6 abhidhamma. (can you memorized sutta-pāli just 1 vagga?)
    4. So, in A.N. ekakanipāta etadagga-pāli, buddha said ānanda was the best in sutta-memorizer, upāli was the best in vinaya, and sāriputta was the best in teaching.
  2. The meaning of dhammavinaya is dhamma+vinaya = (sutta+abhidhamma)+vinaya. So, by the description it was already included in 1st and 2nd ancient theravāda saṅgāyanā.
  3. If you even actually studied abhidhamma, you will see the fact "it is actual that abhidhamma was just a dictionary and commentary of suttanta". Abhidhamma looks like formulas of arahanta. So, alagaddūpamasutta's commentary and introduction of viniaya's commentary said "memorizing whole tipitaka is just a job of arahanta-ariya". Because when arahanta's task done, ādittapariyāya sutta, then he can recite tipitaka full-time. Then when someone memorized many relational stuffs, they will reference each related stuffs together.
So, that is the reason why no each other mention between each canon. My answer is global more than your opinion. Also my answer more reference than your opinion, too. Because I study it directly from pāli, not just a professor believer like you.

So is it a time to begin advance pāli recite and memorize for you, isn't it?
Another in my experience, asoka's magathī is very difference from pāli and commentary. So, abhidhamma, except the 4th canon, and commentary can not wrote in that time.
And, by the way, how will you explain that fact that language in Abidhamma differs a lot (from linguistic point of view) from that in Suttanta?
I explained by the historical reference, not just professor suggestion and imagination like you did.
theY wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:37 am
\
At buddha time, oral reciting&memorizing was the only one way to learn buddha's teaching. So this is the main cause to have commentary at that buddha generation.

Why?

Because Buddha taught each sutta for just students in front of him. So, when bh. ānanda, bh. sāriputta, and bh. upāli had learned oral teaching from buddha, then after buddha finished sutta, they must asked about state, situation, and meaning of each word in that sutta. This was called the great dhamma&vinaya commentary.

There are very less people in tipitaka who appear to be the most important commentators at buddha generation (A.N. Ekapuggala) : budhha, sāriputta (as dhamma teacher), upāli (as vinaya teacher). The others always listen&learned&asked from those important teachers.

The special teaching, about vinaya from buddha to upāli, were appear with upāli literature style in sikkhāpada-nidāna, sikkhāpada-vibhaṅga, parivāra, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

The special teaching, about dhamma from buddha to sāriputta, were appear with sāriputta literature style in abhidhamma-pitaka, K.N.Niddesa, K.N. Paṭisambhidāmagga, K.N. Buddhavaṃsa, K.N. Cariyāpitaka, and the great vinaya commentary (vanished).

Tipitaka strongly keep in pali language because of memorizing vinaya rule that force bhikkhu to memorize tipitaka before live alone or teach others.

But the great commentary didn't include in that vinaya rule, so when the time gone by, commentary loose pali form.

However, the great commentary translated to siṅhala after 3rd saṅgāyanā and translated back again (with extended comment from siṅhala-teachers) by buddhaghosa and many bhikkhus at 10th buddhist century.
Layers of pali literature already being in buddha-living-period.

There are many pali literature in buddha's time, such as buddha's literature, sāriputta's literature, mahākaccāna's literature, upāli's literature, etc. Because every mahāsāvaka have there own students.

But the most influential literature are buddha's literature and sāriputta's literature.

4 nikaya are buddha's literature, most of the others cannon are sāriputta's literature, because he is the one who buddha said "sāriputta is the best teacher who can teach like me". So everyone always go to meet sāriputta to listen his teaching, in his literature. But if someone need buddha's literature, they will go to meet buddha or ānanda, who is the best in sutta memorizing.

So, abhidhamma is difference from sutta, because commentary said "abhidhamma is memorized by sāriputta". And the other buddha's sāvaka book also have literature look like sāriputta's literature because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to learn dhamma with sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).

7 Vinaya-pitaka, is memorized by Upāli and his students. He also author some path of parivāra because buddha said in tipitaka (a.n.) "Upāli is the best vinaya-memorizer" (vinayadharānaṃ yadidaṃ upāliฯ).


Suttanta-pitaka is memorized by Ānanda. But in 1st saṅgayanā, 500 arahanta decide to separate whole sutta to 4 nikya.Then they gave each nikya to a group of 4 etadagga and his student to especially memorize it.


Who are the members, of group of 4 etadagga? Ānanda and his students (tn), Sāriputta's students (mn), Kassapa and his students (sn), Anuruddha and his students (an). (The others have learned and memorized dhamma, too, but buddha said "ānanda is the best", so everyone need him in 1st saṅgayanā).


Abhidhamma-pitaka, paṭisambhidāmagga, niddesa, buddhavaṃsa, cariyā-pitaka, except kathāvatthu of moggalliputta, is learned by Sāriputta, But then they are memorized by every arahanta, because everyone in buddha-living-period often go to listen Sāriputta (see:mahāgosiṅgasālasuttaṃ).


Origin: http://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0101a.att0.xml


http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/se ... Commentary
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

User avatar
Zom
Posts: 1737
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 6:38 pm
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 24, 2017 12:56 am

You are anti commentary, so you distort my translated history from commentary, by your opinion.
Sorry, I'm not "anti-commentary", but I just posted Ven. Buddhaghosa's commentary (concerning the view on momentariness of Four Paths) - which, as it seems, you mark as wrong one.

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