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Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:04 am
by LamV
Dear ones,
I’ve been looking in various sources to find a proximate order, researchers suggest, the Abhidhamma books were compiled. The only treatment of the subject I found was in Davis introduction to Dhammasangani. Davis states that the Dhammasangani dates around the first third of the 4 century B.C. and that it’s younger than The KathaVatthu. Do you know of other sources, dating the other books of the Abhidhamma? The book of Patthana? I will be much obliged for any help I can get. Thank you.
VL

Re: Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:33 pm
by robertk
The Kathavathu was first rehearsed at the 3rd council. the other 6 books date from time of Buddha

Re: Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:30 pm
by LamV
Than You :)

Re: Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2017 7:52 am
by theY
My conclusion from tipitaka and commentaries:

All tipitaka canons and commentaries, except kathāvatthu the forth of abhidhamma, began before 1st saṅgāyanā, but catagorize at 1st saṅgāyanā (see: DN.Commentary.)

But some tipitaka canons had done at 1st saṅgāyanā, some at 2nd, some at 3rd, and just vinaya-history in parivāra had done after 3rd saṅgāyanā (because vinaya have serious rule about the qualification of vinaya-successor, so list of vinaya-memorized successor's names were required, in parivāra, that began in upāli-thera school).

What canons were done at 1st?

Because of unanimous decision of 500 saṅgha at 1st saṇgayanā, that saṅgha must not add/cut/change any buddha's words off teaching. So this canons must done in 1st saṇgayanā:
  1. Buddha's literal canons, that was learn & memorized by ānanda, upāli:
    • 7 vinaya-pitaka (except sattasatikakhandhaka in cullavagga), parivāra-content (except vinaya-history), 4 nikāya, buddha's literal canons in kuddaka-nikaya.
  2. Sāriputta's literal canons, that was learn & author by sāriputta-mahāsāvaka and memorized by his students, who were in 1st saṇgayanā instead of sāriputta, who died before 1st saṇgāyanā. Buddha chose to support sāriputta as the best teacher (etadagga) like himself. So no one can change his speech, too. So his canons should had done in 1st saṇgayanā, too:
    • Sāriputta's literal sutta in 4 nikāya, sutanipāta, sāriputta-theragāthā, niddesa, paṭisambhidāmagga, sāriputta-apadāna, cariyāpitaka, 6 abhidhamma-pitaka, Mahāaṭṭhakathā (The great commentary).
    • In my opinion I think buddha-apadāna and many jātaka are memorized by sāriputta, too. Because of buddhavaṃsa's and cariyāpitaka's characters. And in nidāna of DN.Commentary. also have an conversation between ānanda (dīghabhāṇaka) and sāriputta's students (macchimabhāṇaka) at first saṇgāyana about the categorization of KN. & buddhavaṃsa & cariyapitaka that should include in suttanta or in abhidhamma.
  3. The other sāvaka's & sāvikā's speech, that were memorized by some saṇgha in 1st saṇgāyanā:
    • Sāvaka's & sāvikā's speech that were memorized by ānanda: Itivuttaka, The remaining speech in 4 nikāya.
    • Sāvaka's & sāvikā's speech that were told by the owners: Some thera/therīgatha, Some thera/theri-apadāna.
    • Sāvaka's & sāvikā's speech that were told by their students: Sāriputta-theragātha/therāpadāna, Moggallāna-theragātha/therāpadāna, etc.
What canons were done at 2nd?
  • Some thera/therīgatha, Some thera/theri-apadāna (some thera died after 1st saṇgāyanā such as ānanda, kassapa, anuruddha, upāli, etc.)
  • Sattasatikakhandhaka in cullavagga and just sattasatikakhandhaka's commentary. (In my opinion arahanta, in 3rd saṇgāyanā, did not author 3rd saṇgayana history anymore because they realized that it will be over responsibility of future-generations-vinaya-memorizers).
What canons were done at 3rd?
  • Kathāvatthu and just kathāvatthu's commentary.
  • Commentary about 3rd saṇgāyanā history.
What canons were done after 3rd?
  • Vinaya-history in parivāra.
  • None-Pali commentaries' translation and extension (andhaka-aṭṭhakathā, kauanadī-aṭṭhakathā, pañcarī-aṭṭhakathā).
  • Visuddhimagga and Abhinava-aṭṭhakathā (the combination of commentaries. It is just old commentaries in new package. Buddhaghosa wrote that he never add/edit anything. He just remix fussy/duplicate texts and translate siṇhala commentaries to pali language).
  • Abhidhammatthasaṇgaha, abhidhammāvatara, and many summary-commentaries.
**Related Answer:**
- https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/ques ... -and-vipas

- Layers of pali literality already being in buddha-living-period.
https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/a/21166/10100

http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... anons.html

Re: Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:03 pm
by Zom
The Kathavathu was first rehearsed at the 3rd council. the other 6 books date from time of Buddha
This is hardly credible, otherwise, we would see same abhidhamma books in each and every pre-mahayanic buddhist school (as with Nikayas/Agamas), but this is not the case. Theravadin abhidhamma books were composed some time after the major Sangha split. This is worth reading.

Re: Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:35 pm
by theY
Zom wrote:
The Kathavathu was first rehearsed at the 3rd council. the other 6 books date from time of Buddha
This is hardly credible, otherwise, we would see same abhidhamma books in each and every pre-mahayanic buddhist school (as with Nikayas/Agamas), but this is not the case. Theravadin abhidhamma books were composed some time after the major Sangha split. This is worth reading.
The anti abhidhamma book, wrote like texts inside that book without any history that I have wrote above reply, therefore the book is very bias.

45 years of buddha time was enough for buddha to taught abhidhamma to sāriputta. Also, it was enough for sāriputta to taught abhidhamma in his style to his students. It was not necessary for 2 hundred years to develop abhidhamma. People can have there own speech style, that maybe difference form the others, in the same age, no need 2 hundred years to develop speech style.

Re: Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:53 pm
by Zom
45 years of buddha time was enough for buddha to taught abhidhamma to sāriputta
However, the truth is, he didn't teach it. That is, if we take unbiased (scientific) approach to texts. But if we blindly follow tradition, yes, we will have to think that he taught it. Just like mahayanists who are sure that Nagarjuna brought mahayana sutras from Naga Realm - because this is said in their sacred texts.

But I won't participate in debates in this very thread, since a lot has been written already - https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2169

Re: Dates of the seven books of Abhidhamma

Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:19 am
by theY
Zom wrote:
45 years of buddha time was enough for buddha to taught abhidhamma to sāriputta
However, the truth is, he didn't teach it. That is, if we take unbiased (scientific) approach to texts. But if we blindly follow tradition, yes, we will have to think that he taught it. Just like mahayanists who are sure that Nagarjuna brought mahayana sutras from Naga Realm - because this is said in their sacred texts.

Commentary already said "buddha taught a summary of abhidhamma to sāriputta, then sāriputta taught and described that abhidhamma to his students" (Abh.Saṅ.Com. Intro). But the western professors never focus on it. It is your professor's mistake for through 200 years ago. The commentary clearly wrote the history from 0 buddhist era, but your professors biased and distort it like commentary never said this history to discredit abhidhamma and commentary through 200 years ago.

Another, especially, more than 40 years, that sāriputta lived in buddha age and taught abhidhamma to his students (mahāgosiṅgasāla-sutta), include the memorizers in 1st saṅgāyanā such as ānanda, upāli, kassapa, and anuruddha, this period was very enough to prove that buddha and saṅgha very agree with abhidhamma of sāriputta. Also, buddha announced by himself that sāriputta was the best teacher who can taught 4 noble truths like him (A.N. Ekapuggalavagga).