Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

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ihrjordan
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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:44 pm

perkele wrote:
Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:12 pm
perkele wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:00 pm
But in this sutta the Buddha seems to contradict the idea that all bodily feeling is caused by kamma quite clearly:
SN 36.32 wrote:"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."
On reaximnation, I think it is not accurate to say that the Buddha clearly contradicts the idea of all bodily feeling being caused by kamma.

He simply states that "these ascetics and brahmans" "go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world". So he criticizes them for making definitive statements about things they don't really know, without explicitly stating that it is not true.
That they are co-produced by other exterior circumstances does not mean they cannot simultaneously be results of kamma.

But at least it seems he discouraged thinking in such one-dimensional terms of "oh, this unpleasent feeling is the result of some kamma I did", "oh that pleasent feeling is the result of some kamma I did".
So now I'm curious as to whether you find my elemental theory "hypothesis" at all credible? Did you experience worry, anxiety, sleeplessness between July 22 and sept21? Did you experience mental states related to earth and water like laziness, lust, timidness, dullness in the spring? And now in fall do you find yourself feeling remorseful, competitive , prideful and angry? My apologies for my inactivity and after examination of the sutra you referenced and just personal experience it seems that everything we experience is born from the past to some extent. Whether caused from past kamma or in the case of someone doing something in the present giving rise to feelings of one sort or another by the time the mind perceives the feeling the action that caused it is already in the past. I'm leaning towards all this as more or less the truth based on my own life and practice so hopefully I'm not falling into the same trap as those aforementioned ascetic and Brahmins. I will try and keep an open mind in regards to evidence to the contrary and may all who find my "theory" credible do the same so as to not go astray.

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ihrjordan
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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by ihrjordan » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:20 am

And as clarification intention is kam a I'm not a heretic to that extent :jumping:

perkele
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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by perkele » Mon Oct 01, 2018 4:44 pm

ihrjordan wrote:
Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:44 pm
So now I'm curious as to whether you find my elemental theory "hypothesis" at all credible? Did you experience worry, anxiety, sleeplessness between July 22 and sept21? Did you experience mental states related to earth and water like laziness, lust, timidness, dullness in the spring? And now in fall do you find yourself feeling remorseful, competitive , prideful and angry? My apologies for my inactivity and after examination of the sutra you referenced and just personal experience it seems that everything we experience is born from the past to some extent. Whether caused from past kamma or in the case of someone doing something in the present giving rise to feelings of one sort or another by the time the mind perceives the feeling the action that caused it is already in the past. I'm leaning towards all this as more or less the truth based on my own life and practice so hopefully I'm not falling into the same trap as those aforementioned ascetic and Brahmins. I will try and keep an open mind in regards to evidence to the contrary and may all who find my "theory" credible do the same so as to not go astray.
Ha, nice that you picked up that topic again just now!
So now I'm curious as to whether you find my elemental theory "hypothesis" at all credible?
I must admit that I have not understood the underyling theory and have not really tried to investigate it. But...
Did you experience worry, anxiety, sleeplessness between July 22 and sept21?
Yes. Definitely, very much so. Not sure if more than at any other time, but it was high up there.
And now in fall do you find yourself feeling remorseful, competitive , prideful and angry?
Lately, I feel very vengeful and want to see the world burn, which is actually why I logged in here, looking if there's any dhammic discussion topic here to tune into, in search for a healthier outlook. Not really remorseful, more depressed, melancholic.
Feeling the world is evil and I want to burn it. Everything is meaningless, every effort in vain.


MN 117 wrote:And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view.

So what should I do against that?
MN 117 wrote:One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view.
And I guess that is where remorse should arise. Taking stock of one's own failings and mistakes, to readjust one's skewed vision.

I just can't find the right soundtrack for that. :/


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