Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

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Ripser
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Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by Ripser » Wed Jul 26, 2017 4:19 pm

Dear friends,
I'm working my way through the Abhidhammic system but I find the materials available in English rather dry and difficult, even when they are supposed to be introductory (the most "narrative" I know of are the Abhidhamma Studies of Nyanaponika Thera). I guess this is due to the traditional style of learning, centered on lists, classifications and recitation, which I probably should be following instead of the modern quick-comprehension, overall-glimpse style. (It’s never late, I guess…) There is one question for which I have found no clear answer in my books of reference on the Abhidhamma, namely Buddha Abhidhamma by Mehm Tin Monand and the Abhidhammattha-sangaha edition by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Mahāthera Nārada (Pariyatti Ed., 2012).

My doubts are related to the resultant rootless consciousness (pali: vipāka-ahetuka-cittāni).First of all, let’s refresh what this types of consciousness are.

According to the Theravada scholastic tradition, there are 15 resultant rootless sense-sphere cittas (states of consciousness): resultant (vipāka) here means that they correspond to kammic fruition, and rootless (ahetu) indicates that, as they are the result of kamma and not the creation of future kamma, they are not directly connected with the roots of greed, hatred or delusion. These cittas might be either wholesome or unwholesome (i. e. the result of wholesome or unwholesome past actions) and are related either to one of physical five senses (taste, sight, touch, smell, and hearing) or to the receiving and investigating activities that arise in the mind after the sensory experience. Feelings associated with the resultant rootless cittas are bodily pain or equanimity in the "unwholesome" cittas, and bodily pleasure, equanimity or joy in the "wholesome" ones. See table 1.3 in Bhikkhu Bodhi’s edition of the Abhidhammattha-sangaha for further details.

I am aware that the "law" of kamma is regarded in the Suttas and the commentaries in pretty realistic and objective terms (e.g., the death of Ven. Mahamoggallāna). An extreme example of the objective and law-like kammic fruition sometimes found in the Suttas might be the image of someone's head exploding because of not answering a question from a Tathāgata (s. MN 35.13). Nevertheless, I have often wondered about the possibility that human-realm vipāka (fruits of kamma) comprises, not only five-sense experiences, but also states of mind directly prompted by the remembrance of past action, or by imaginations and fantasies. An everyday example could be remorse, or rather a sudden outburst of remorse. Remembering something you have done or said that makes you suffer can be an active volitional activity (you can either indulge in it or let it go), and hence a cause of kamma, good or bad, but it can also be spontaneous, unexpected and unwanted.

But remorse is usually built upon a purely mental object, that is, a memory. And, as we have seen, the Abhidhamma seems to consider only the five sense cittas as vipāka, excluding the mind-door (the sixth sense-base), which is absent in the 15 resultant rootless cittas. Is vipāka, i.e., the result of kamma, in the sense-sphere only linked to eye, nose, ear, tongue and touch? Are you aware of any passage in the Abhidhammic literature (or in the Suttas, for that matter) suggesting that vipāka can be itself a private and subjective state conditioned by a mental object, such as an outburst of remorse, sudden good memories or joy, or a mental breakdown?

Any guess would be appreciated, and, if something doesn't seem clear (old hazy Abhidhamma, and I suspect I didn’t manage to make it clearer), please don't hesitate to ask.

We quoted Peter Harvey above. Here is what he has to say about remorse:
“However much Buddhism may value genuine remorse, it does not –certainly in its Theravāda form – encourage feelings of guilt; for such a heavy feeling, with its attendant anguish and self-dislike, is not seen as a good state of mind to develop, being unconducive to calm and clarity of mind. Indeed, it can be seen as an aspect of the fourth spiritual hindrance, of agitated ‘restlessness and worry’. Such a feeling might arise as part of the natural karmic result of an action, but is not to be actively indulged in (An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics, Cambridge University Press, 2000, p. 28)
He accepts the possibility of remorse as a karmic result, but I fail to see how it could be explained in the language of the Abhidhamma.

Metta,
Oscar.

P.S. : I have heard that some non-Theravāda Abhidhammas include remorse as an indeterminate (aniyata) mental factor, whose karmic value depends on the motivation behind it. Again, this refers to the intentional construction (saṅkhāra), not the result (vipāka), of kamma/karma.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jul 26, 2017 5:45 pm

Ripser wrote:We quoted Peter Harvey above. Here is what he has to say about remorse:
“However much Buddhism may value genuine remorse, it does not –certainly in its Theravāda form – encourage feelings of guilt; for such a heavy feeling, with its attendant anguish and self-dislike, is not seen as a good state of mind to develop, being unconducive to calm and clarity of mind. Indeed, it can be seen as an aspect of the fourth spiritual hindrance, of agitated ‘restlessness and worry’. Such a feeling might arise as part of the natural karmic result of an action, but is not to be actively indulged in (An Introduction to Buddhist Ethics, Cambridge University Press, 2000, p. 28)
He accepts the possibility of remorse as a karmic result, but I fail to see how it could be explained in the language of the Abhidhamma.
Harvey's understanding of the matter can't be explained in Abhidhammic terms because remorse is not conceived as a vipāka in the Abhidhamma but as a mental factor (i.e. kukkucca) that arises with aversion-rooted cittas. I discussed this matter some years ago in this post:
Dhammanando wrote:When we fret and worry, recalling our past misdeeds, we are not experiencing the vipāka of those kammas, but rather creating fresh kamma.

In abhidhammic terms, on those occasions when we are worried or remorseful as a result of recalling our past unwholesome kammas, this worry is the mental factor of kukkucca accompanying aversion-rooted unwholesome consciousnesses. Such consciousnesses are not vipākas but rather the instigators of fresh kamma. At such moments we are agents, not patients. In terms of the five-niyāma scheme, the generation of worry and remorse by past unwholesome actions falls under citta-niyāma, not kamma-niyāma.

Were it the case that ‘vipāka’ meant the unpleasant memories of our past misdeeds, then the amnesiacal and the senile could perform akusala kammas that generated no vipākas. Were it the case that ‘vipāka’ meant the worry and remorse prompted by these memories, then a sociopath, by his incapacity for remorse, would likewise be immune to the ripening of akusala kammas.

However, since the actual vipākas of our unwholesome kammas are such things as painful bodily feeling, encounters with unwished-for sights, sounds, smells, tastes, etc., shortened life-span, violent deaths, unfavourable rebirths, etc., the amnesiac and the sociopath are as much subject to them as anyone else.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:09 pm

Ripser wrote:P.S. : I have heard that some non-Theravāda Abhidhammas include remorse as an indeterminate (aniyata) mental factor, whose karmic value depends on the motivation behind it. Again, this refers to the intentional construction (saṅkhāra), not the result (vipāka), of kamma/karma.
This is probably due to the fact there there are some passages in the Tipiṭaka where the word kukkucca refers to wholesome states of mind. The Buddha, for example, is said to have kukkucca with regard to the welfare of the bhikkhusaṅgha. Scrupulous bhikkhus are sometimes said to have kukkucca not because they have done anything wrong but because they find themselves in a situation where they might break one of their training rules and are anxious not to do so. In these contexts Theravādin ābhidhammikas would not take the word kukkucca as denoting the unwholesome mental factor of this name, but rather as terms used in common speech which, when translated into Abhidhammic terms, would denote beautiful mental factors. And so the Buddha's "kukkucca" is actually his solicitousness for the welfare of the sangha and comprises mettā and karuṇā; the scrupulous bhikkhus' "kukkucca" is actually hiri and ottappa.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by Ripser » Wed Jul 26, 2017 6:49 pm

Dhammanando wrote: Harvey's understanding of the matter can't be explained in Abhidhammic terms because remorse is not conceived as a vipāka in the Abhidhamma but as a mental factor (i.e. kukkucca) that arises with aversion-rooted cittas.

Thank you very much, Bhante. It seems the Abhidhamma is clear in this respect. The relation between kamma and vipaka certainly looks more solid if mind-objects are excluded.

Do you think the suttas fully support this view? Perhaps in popular Buddhism remorse, etc. can easily be seen as kammic consequences of their corresponding actions. I wonder where Harvey takes that idea from.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:53 pm

Ripser wrote:Do you think the suttas fully support this view?
In the suttas the arising of remorse when a person recalls his former misdeeds is never referred to as the 'kammavipāka' or the 'kammaphala' of those deeds. Rather, the commonest kind of construction in remorse-related passages is to the effect, "So and so came to be remorseful, thinking "blah blah blah..." where the thoughts are simply his memory of what he has done or failed to do, coupled with an awareness of the unskilfulness of it. So the abhidhammic understanding is certainly compatible with the suttas. Whether it is positively supported by the suttas is another question.
Ripser wrote:Perhaps in popular Buddhism remorse, etc. can easily be seen as kammic consequences of their corresponding actions.
That may be the case in some popular western Buddhism, but I've never encountered it among Asian Buddhists. Of course Asian folk Buddhism has many errors of its own regarding the kamma doctrine, but it doesn't seem to be afflicted with this particular one.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by ToVincent » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:19 pm

Uddhacca-Kukkucca:

"overdoing & underdoing" ?



::::::::::::::::
Uddhacca
::::::::::::::::

Pali:
------------
substantivised ger.of ud-dharati (ud + dhṛ).

uddharati:
- to raise, pick up, ...


Sanskrit:
------------

उद् ud
- above, over, upwards , ...

dharati:
3rd present active singular of √ धृ dhṛ

√ धृ dhṛ
- to begin , undertake, ... (AV. ŚBr. ChUp.)




::::::::::::::::
Kukkucca
::::::::::::::::


Pali:
------------
Kukkucca, [kud-kicca - Kicca > grd.of karoti=Sk.kṛtya]

ku:
As adv.in cpds.in disparaging sense of “what of”? i.e. little.

karoti:
- to act, perform, make, do.


Sanskrit:
------------
कौकृत्य kaukṛtya fr. [ ku-kṛta ] , or [ ku-kṛtya ]
No pre-Buddhist texts' reference.

कु [ ku ] prefix
- implying depreciation , deficiency , littleness , ...

कृत [ kṛta ]
- done , made , accomplished , performed (RV. AV.)
- deed , work , action (RV. AV. ŚvetUp.)

कृत्य [ kṛtya ]
- action , act , deed , performance , achievement (AV. MBh.)

So kukkucca is not about remorse per se; but, instead, about doing something depreciative by and large- which can be remorse in some cases - like when someone feels regret for a misdeed; linked to having done something with "littleness"; with deficiency.

-------------------
Ripser wrote:........
The idea of remorse + kamma, is pretty equivocal; because the end of kamma seems related to it.
Remorse + intention of not doing it again, is the end of kamma - the transcendance of the depreciative deed.
Here is what the Buddha says about the (really) depreciative act (Kukkucca) of killing - of which someone could have "remorse" for.
“Then a disciple has full confidence in that teacher. He reflects thus: ‘In many ways the Blessed One criticizes and censures the destruction of life, and he says: “Abstain from the destruction of life.” Now I have destroyed life to such and such an extent. That wasn’t proper; that wasn’t good. But though I feel regret over this, that evil deed of mine cannot be undone.’ Having reflected thus, he abandons the destruction of life and he abstains from the destruction of life in the future. Thus there comes about the abandoning of that evil deed; thus there comes about the transcending of that evil deed.
SN 42.8
:oops: :embarassed:


“When I came to a standstill, friend, then I sank; but when I struggled, then I got swept away. It is in this way, friend, that by not halting and by not straining I crossed the flood.”
“Yadāsvāhaṃ, āvuso, santiṭṭhāmi tadāssu saṃsīdāmi; yadāsvāhaṃ, āvuso, āyūhāmi tadāssu nibbuyhāmi. Evaṃ khvāhaṃ, āvuso, appatiṭṭhaṃ anāyūhaṃ oghamatarin”ti.
SN 1.1
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
In this world with its ..., māras, ... in this population with its ascetics.... (AN 5.30).
------
We are all possessed - more or less.
------
And what, bhikkhu, is inward rottenness? Here someone is immoral, one of evil character, of impure and suspect behaviour, secretive in his acts, no ascetic though claiming to be one, not a celibate though claiming to be one, inwardly rotten, corrupt, depraved. This is called inward rottenness.”
SN 35.241
------
https://justpaste.it/j5o4

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by theY » Sat Aug 19, 2017 8:04 am

Uddhacca=Concentration's enemy=low samādhi's power.

Kukkucca=Worry after done unwholesome kamma and Sorry after loose chance to do wholesome kamma.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by theY » Sat Aug 19, 2017 12:19 pm

5 viññāṇa are vipāka, because they are effects of saṅkhāra-paticcasamuppāda (kamma-bhava-paṭiccasamuppāda).

Kamma give vipāka.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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ihrjordan
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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:50 pm

Id like to propose that while remorseful THOUGHTS may be simply the creation of new kamma rather than the fruits of past misdeeds; the unpleasant bodily feelings typically associated with remorse can in fact be a result of kamma. If one examines closely what is happening when feelings of guilt arise they may notice qualities of burning, sharpness, dryness, lightness within their body etc qualities also associated with the fire element.. (Bare with me) but what's interesting is that when these bodily feelings arise you can bring to mind something agreeable and pleasent rather than thoughts of past misdeeds but yet....the remorseful BODILY FEELING still lingers.

That is to say that it is not the remorseful thought which gives rise to remorseful, burning feelings, but rather the vitiated and disagreeable fire element within the body gives rise to thoughts e.g. creating new kamma, and perhaps spotlighting what the mind is clinging to. Thoughts on their own don't bring with them painful bodily feelings, if that was the case you could never examine them objectively in mediation. Rather the mind creates stories and excuses around those feelings.

This jives well with the Buddhist meditation object of seeing all as earth, all as fire, all as water etc. As far as I know, unpleasant bodily feelings can only arise with unskillful actions as condition and don't arise otherwise. So are those not results of kamma?

All of this also applies to states like depression, lethargy (associated with the earth and water elements) doubt, anxiety and worry (associated with the wind and space elements) these are unpleasant bodily feelings not "unpleasant" thoughts. How could a thought be unpleasent without the sense faculties to perceive it as such?

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by perkele » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:00 pm

Good to see you once again here, Jordan, and a very merry un-birthday to you!

This is quite interesting theory. I can definitely relate to the "burning, sharpness, dryness, lightness within their body" connected with remorse. It can be quite intense and overwhelming, even leading to believe that one is literally going to hell.
(Many hells are described as hot, burning, dry. The "hell of ashes" comes to mind, in particular).
ihrjordan wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:50 pm
As far as I know, unpleasant bodily feelings can only arise with unskillful actions as condition and don't arise otherwise. So are those not results of kamma?
Not sure. If I understand correctly this is the Abhidhamma position.
Surely, the part of kamma can be very significant.
But in this sutta the Buddha seems to contradict the idea that all bodily feeling is caused by kamma quite clearly:
SN 36.32 wrote:"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."
ihrjordan wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:50 pm
All of this also applies to states like depression, lethargy (associated with the earth and water elements) doubt, anxiety and worry (associated with the wind and space elements) these are unpleasant bodily feelings not "unpleasant" thoughts. How could a thought be unpleasent without the sense faculties to perceive it as such?
I wonder, where do you have these associations from? Depression and lethargy connected to earth and water... anxiety, doubt and worry connected to wind?

These seem like quite nice fitting associations in some ways. And especially in the case of remorse and burning, the case for me from my experience seems very clear. But where did you get this theory from?


But to respond to the message: Yes, the word "remorse" can be used ambiguously. Referring to certain thoughts, or to certain feelings, but maybe mostly to a mix of both, like with all emotions. And I think that the emotion (emotions are complex things) of remorse can contain also a lot of wholesome ingredients.

I think it seems plausible that feelings are not kamma (but only vipaka from previous kamma or from something else), but active thoughts are (passive thoughts, just popping into one's mind, probably not so much - again it's a bit tricky to be precise).

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by justindesilva » Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:07 pm

Is it not remorse and regret that made Angulimala to a desciple of lord budda leading him to marga phala. It is this margha phala that lead him in to kusala kamma.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by ihrjordan » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:23 pm

=perkele post_id=461964 time=1520528430 user_id=3233]
Good to see you once again here, Jordan, and a very merry un-birthday to you!
[/quote]
Thank you : D
perkele wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:00 pm
Not sure. If I understand correctly this is the Abhidhamma position.
Surely, the part of kamma can be very significant.
But in this sutta the Buddha seems to contradict the idea that all bodily feeling is caused by kamma quite clearly:
Kamma is of 3 sorts. What was done in the past. What one is presently doing and what one has yet to do. To say that ALL unpleasant feelings are the result of what was done in the past is indeed verifiably wrong in the here and now. But nowhere does the buddha say that those feelings CAN'T be a result of past actions. Why the hindrances could arise simply due to being out in direct sunlight , taking too much oncoming wind, drinking cold milk in the spring time or day sleep in the rains. At the end of the day our present actions are most important. Are we examining the remorse with proper wisdom or letting it drag us this way and that with all the stories that we attach to the vitiated fire/water elements?
perkele wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:00 pm
I wonder, where do you have these associations from? Depression and lethargy connected to earth and water... anxiety, doubt and worry connected to wind?

These seem like quite nice fitting associations in some ways. And especially in the case of remorse and burning, the case for me from my experience seems very clear. But where did you get this theory from?
Elemental theory is found in both ayurvedic medicine and buddhist doctrine as well as other religious doctrines like hinduism (Jainism?) and traditional Chinese medicine all which of I have admittedly less interest in than Buddhism but which I've been able to verify in my own being as well. The 3 humors of vata (air and aether) Pita (fire and water) and kapha ( earth and water) make up this body and it is through a combination of them and the elements external to us + the mind that we experience pleasure, pain or neither pleasure nor pain in the present moment based on our past and present kamma (of course one could argue that the mind is required to experience and judge feelings in the body and indeed it is . Fact is and for expediency sake, without a body one could not experience feelings including the five hindrances and also without a mind one could not experience the body which brings about said feelings) although I'm not entirely sure how this would play out in formless realms or where skilfull pleasure arises from.... Do you require a physical body to experience 4th jhana for example? The healthier one is, the less the vitiated mahabhutas (five great elements) are able to hold sway over our mind. It's not that the elements are associated with feelings like depression, guilt, worry, anger etc its that THEY ARE THOSE FEELINGS. Any thoughts or stories that we associate with the feelings which these elements create in our bodies are merely the seeds of new kamma but the feelings experienced in the present are a mix of the results of past and present kamma.

It doesn't really make sense for me to explain why the elements are associated with these states when in fact through a combination of mental perception and imbalance of the elements therein these feelings are perceived internally. The mind then goes on a ride in an attempt to explain/justify them. So again these feelings aren't associated with the elements; THEY ARE THE ELEMENTS but without conciousness they couldnt arise.

Rather than try to explain it you can actually witness it for yourself and verify it firsthand. In the northern hemisphere we are in late winter with spring fast upon us.. if you want to get depressed/lazy/lustful/dull/timid etc drink some cold milk in spring, eat a heavy meal and then take a nap have some yogurt right before going to bed between march 15- 22nd to may 15-22nd
This is when kapha (earth and water is typically high in the body) like increases like and engaging in provoking activities gives the hindrances an opening to invade the mind and remain.

Why stop there? If you want to feel angry/vengeful/remorseful/overly critical take regular swigs of vinegar, eat abundant salty preparations in the autumn months and sunbath. This is when pita is typically high.

By eating one meal a day and maintaing other precepts we are able to bring balance to the 5 elements within our body thus granting strength, good complexion, beauty, freedom from disease, wisdom, intelligence etc. We have more control over our minds and are less and less likely to commit unskilfull acts. We have a comfortable abiding here and now; feeling less oprressed and thus less keen on inflicting oppression onto others.

But to make it clear you still need the mind to percieve these feelings and without the mind they could not arise. I am no way promoting or condoning any deterministic or purely biologically driven views which discount any kind of accountability.

As an aside it's often thought that stress is one of the biggest contributing factors to disease. Stress can be categorized in various ways all the way from irritation to chronic depression. When a disease finally does manifests its interesting to see that the disease process had been revealing itself all along with emotional states eerily similar to qualities of the disease. Ever notice how alcoholics are often angry with a reddish hue to their skin? Some time passes and they now have gastritis, high blood pressure, cirrhosis of the liver? Hmmm pita had been revealing itself all along, but they were too blind to see it.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by ihrjordan » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:33 am

I found an old post of mine which further elaborates upon elemental theory as it relates to the 5 hindrances. I hope I haven't scared anyone away :thinking:

:
All the hindrances are, are feelings which arise from the 5 elements. Anger, doubt, laziness, greed and worry are all bodily feelings that the untrained mind then immediately jumps on as anger, doubt etc. As such it is not the feelings of the hindrances themselves that are suffering but rather the attachment to the hindrances which are suffering. This may come off as heretical but I don't think Arahats are free from the physical sensations of the hindrances but rather they are free from the minds inclination to immediately act upon said feelings. For example, a worrisome feeling arises and then the mind immediately jumps on it so as to equate the feeling with a mental or physical state, it looks for something to worry about AFTER experiencing the worrisome bodily feeling. An arahat might still experience this feeling but will not follow after it as an ordinary one would.

First the hindrance arises and THEN the mind attempts to interpret the feeling. First their is pain or anger and THEN the mind looks for something to get angry about.

They are hindrances because they are tied up with the physical. Have you ever wondered why conceit is not considered a hindrance by the buddha? It is my understandinew that a being in the formless realms could not give rise to the hindrances because they are free from feelings both positive and negative, hence free from anger, doubt etc. But they would not be free from conceit as it does not rely upon the body as the 5 hindrances do.

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by perkele » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:12 pm

perkele wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 5:00 pm
But in this sutta the Buddha seems to contradict the idea that all bodily feeling is caused by kamma quite clearly:
SN 36.32 wrote:"Produced by (disorders of the) bile, there arise, Sivaka, certain kinds of feelings. That this happens, can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true. Produced by (disorders of the) phlegm... of wind... of (the three) combined... by change of climate... by adverse behavior... by injuries... by the results of Kamma — (through all that), Sivaka, there arise certain kinds of feelings. That this happens can be known by oneself; also in the world it is accepted as true.

"Now when these ascetics and brahmans have such a doctrine and view that 'whatever a person experiences, be it pleasure, pain or neither-pain-nor-pleasure, all that is caused by previous action,' then they go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world. Therefore, I say that this is wrong on the part of these ascetics and brahmans."
On reaximnation, I think it is not accurate to say that the Buddha clearly contradicts the idea of all bodily feeling being caused by kamma.

He simply states that "these ascetics and brahmans" "go beyond what they know by themselves and what is accepted as true by the world". So he criticizes them for making definitive statements about things they don't really know, without explicitly stating that it is not true.
That they are co-produced by other exterior circumstances does not mean they cannot simultaneously be results of kamma.

But at least it seems he discouraged thinking in such one-dimensional terms of "oh, this unpleasent feeling is the result of some kamma I did", "oh that pleasent feeling is the result of some kamma I did".

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Re: Remorse or regret as fruits of kamma

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:14 pm

Pardon for giving my self here leave to approach and to go possible in between with a unusual approach and it should also not offend those holding on certain traditional stands to keep a old cart rolling on. One should also know that my person is not well versed in scriptural and convetional Abhidhamma.

Anyhow, may it be allowed to express straight from the heart in the regards of the base of possible struggle here.

Of course like everything one experiances if the "feeling" or better maybe ārammaṇa of remorse arises is a matter of kamma. It's importand to be clear that what ever kamma is not just a matter of the past but also of the present and reaction on vipaka as well.

Having given proper remorse way but also to get in touch with it is a matter of Nissaya and upanissayapaccayena for the first acting after vipāka.

To have proper remorse be touched is a matter of skilfull actions to ripe and to give it certain required nurishment kusala kamma.

Others in cases where improper remorse arises, remorse toward actually good actions.

If asking what needs to be touched that it gives rise to skillful actions or even beyound, is possible good to answer "vijjā" or certain amout of it (saddhā/saddha).

In regard of the global argumentation which is given by the cited sutta from Upasaka below, it should not be forgotten that birth and body, at fist place, is a matter of kamma as well. Sadhu for lighten dangers to take on certain stands.

In western or modern world, since opposition is easier to be sold, such as remorse is seen as a basicly hindrance for liberation, but actually it's the governing principle of the path and that is also the reason why only after having abounded the path by finally "nibbaning", remorse is no more a matter (something that can give touch) at all. Till there it is wise to love proper remorse and make use of admirable friends to get clear of what is proper, skilful and unskilled remorse as well as who to get one out of the deep of a fault.

Again a matter of giving upanissayapaccayena, strong condition causes by "terrible" feeding good if meeting it or search after it if not found yet.

(Note that my person just read to OP titel and to last posts, so possible just a matter of no remorse of giving certain approves once touched and going after such.)

Mudita for all your eager undertakings here to find proper Nissaya and with all your possibilities of lasting upanissaya. Don't waste them by non-actions an feeding off past painful sacrifices since a long long time.

No remorse for giving into proper remorse and rejecting improper = e.g. right efforts mirracle key.

May the elders and competent, out of compassion for many correct certain misleading expressions and fill graps for final ways for release rather than stands within this probably poor experienced touch, account. May those certain secure have no reason for fear of praising and rebuking of what is proper to be handled as such. Good kamma does not bite painful back but possible may bite defilements in the near of far future well and helpful, to give place from practice as well here, for one wishes to at the same time when study conventions.

Anumodana
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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