as a matter of symmetry it is said that all realities are either nama or rupa.
NIBbana has no relation to rupa at all, but it can be known by nama.
Hence the classification under nama- even though it is not citta or cetasika.
Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha
Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha
So it is not nama per se, but fits under that category because it can be known?robertk wrote:as a matter of symmetry it is said that all realities are either nama or rupa.
NIBbana has no relation to rupa at all, but it can be known by nama.
Hence the classification under nama- even though it is not citta or cetasika.
It almost seems like it would have it's own category for this reason; nama, rupa, nibbana.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha
There are different classifications. Citta, cetasika, Rupa , and nibbana as the 4 paramatha dhammas, might be more to your liking.
Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha
Yup. That's the classification that cleared a lot of confusion up for me and how I started liking Abhidhamma in the first place.robertk wrote:There are different classifications. Citta, cetasika, Rupa , and nibbana as the 4 paramatha dhammas, might be more to your liking.
So both classifications are equally valid? What is the significance behind the different classifications?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha
Ha! I just read Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the section explaining why nibbana is listed under nama. It's a play on words!robertk wrote:There are different classifications. Citta, cetasika, Rupa , and nibbana as the 4 paramatha dhammas, might be more to your liking.
Chapter VIII guide to 29:
note 5:The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name", in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. They are also called nama in the sense of causing to bend (nāmana) since they cause one another to bend on to the object. Nibbana is called nāma solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition5.
So nibbana causes, in contact between itself and mind, supramundane citta to bend onto it. It is not "mind" but rather "to bend". It has nothing to do whatsoever with mind in and of itself but mind bends towards it in the form of supramundane citta, so it got the classification of something that mind bends toward. So interesting how intricate knowledge of a language can make the difference between misinterpretation and accurate understanding. I wish I had this kind of knowledge of Pali!There is a word-play here that cannot be reproduced in English: the word nāma, "name" or "mind", is derived from a verbal root nam meaning "to bend."
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha
Because it is not Rupa.Could you please elaborate on why it is a nama?
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Four Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhammaa)
1)Consciousness (Citta) Umbrella term for mind in active (Cetasika) and passive (Bhavanga) form.
2)The mental factors (52 Cetasika) i.e Feeling or sensation (Vedana) and Perception (Sanna) which are arise as a result of consciousness (samkhara)
3)Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness. The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)
4)Nirvana (Nibbaana) – Nirvana is an unconditioned reality. All other three are conditioned realities.
There are four stage of sainthood – Stream-winner (Sotapatti), Once-Returner (Sakadagami), Non-Returner (Anagami), Worthy (Arahatta)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha
I think that is on the right track. However it is also notable that it is listed as a separate category of it's own in the list of paramattha dhammas. Ultimately it really cannot be categorized under any heading with anything else per se, because it is the opposite of everything else, but when they were listing what can be considered nama as in "concepts" they put nibbana in the form of a play-on-words because the word "nama" shares a root with the word nam that means "to bend" because supramundane consciousness bends to it. So it is technically nama in this sense only.SarathW wrote:Because it is not Rupa.Could you please elaborate on why it is a nama?
===========
Four Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhammaa)
1)Consciousness (Citta) Umbrella term for mind in active (Cetasika) and passive (Bhavanga) form.
2)The mental factors (52 Cetasika) i.e Feeling or sensation (Vedana) and Perception (Sanna) which are arise as a result of consciousness (samkhara)
3)Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness. The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)
4)Nirvana (Nibbaana) – Nirvana is an unconditioned reality. All other three are conditioned realities.
There are four stage of sainthood – Stream-winner (Sotapatti), Once-Returner (Sakadagami), Non-Returner (Anagami), Worthy (Arahatta)
A Manual of Abhidhamma, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Chapter VIII guide to 29:
note 5:The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name", in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. They are also called nama in the sense of causing to bend (nāmana) since they cause one another to bend on to the object. Nibbana is called nāma solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition5.
There is a word-play here that cannot be reproduced in English: the word nāma, "name" or "mind", is derived from a verbal root nam meaning "to bend."
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa