Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

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robertk
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Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

Post by robertk » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:41 pm

as a matter of symmetry it is said that all realities are either nama or rupa.

NIBbana has no relation to rupa at all, but it can be known by nama.
Hence the classification under nama- even though it is not citta or cetasika.

zan
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Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

Post by zan » Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:52 pm

robertk wrote:as a matter of symmetry it is said that all realities are either nama or rupa.

NIBbana has no relation to rupa at all, but it can be known by nama.
Hence the classification under nama- even though it is not citta or cetasika.
So it is not nama per se, but fits under that category because it can be known?

It almost seems like it would have it's own category for this reason; nama, rupa, nibbana.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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robertk
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Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

Post by robertk » Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:53 pm

There are different classifications. Citta, cetasika, Rupa , and nibbana as the 4 paramatha dhammas, might be more to your liking.

zan
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Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

Post by zan » Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:45 pm

robertk wrote:There are different classifications. Citta, cetasika, Rupa , and nibbana as the 4 paramatha dhammas, might be more to your liking.
Yup. That's the classification that cleared a lot of confusion up for me and how I started liking Abhidhamma in the first place.

So both classifications are equally valid? What is the significance behind the different classifications?
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
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Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

Post by zan » Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:45 pm

robertk wrote:There are different classifications. Citta, cetasika, Rupa , and nibbana as the 4 paramatha dhammas, might be more to your liking.
Ha! I just read Bhikkhu Bodhi's note on the section explaining why nibbana is listed under nama. It's a play on words!

Chapter VIII guide to 29:
The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name", in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. They are also called nama in the sense of causing to bend (nāmana) since they cause one another to bend on to the object. Nibbana is called nāma solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition5.
note 5:
There is a word-play here that cannot be reproduced in English: the word nāma, "name" or "mind", is derived from a verbal root nam meaning "to bend."
So nibbana causes, in contact between itself and mind, supramundane citta to bend onto it. It is not "mind" but rather "to bend". It has nothing to do whatsoever with mind in and of itself but mind bends towards it in the form of supramundane citta, so it got the classification of something that mind bends toward. So interesting how intricate knowledge of a language can make the difference between misinterpretation and accurate understanding. I wish I had this kind of knowledge of Pali!
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

SarathW
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Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

Post by SarathW » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:28 am

Could you please elaborate on why it is a nama?
Because it is not Rupa.

===========
Four Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhammaa)
1)Consciousness (Citta) Umbrella term for mind in active (Cetasika) and passive (Bhavanga) form.
2)The mental factors (52 Cetasika) i.e Feeling or sensation (Vedana) and Perception (Sanna) which are arise as a result of consciousness (samkhara)
3)Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness. The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)
4)Nirvana (Nibbaana) – Nirvana is an unconditioned reality. All other three are conditioned realities.
There are four stage of sainthood – Stream-winner (Sotapatti), Once-Returner (Sakadagami), Non-Returner (Anagami), Worthy (Arahatta)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

zan
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Re: Interesting thing about the Abhidhammattha Sangaha

Post by zan » Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:49 am

SarathW wrote:
Could you please elaborate on why it is a nama?
Because it is not Rupa.

===========
Four Ultimate Realities (Paramattha Dhammaa)
1)Consciousness (Citta) Umbrella term for mind in active (Cetasika) and passive (Bhavanga) form.
2)The mental factors (52 Cetasika) i.e Feeling or sensation (Vedana) and Perception (Sanna) which are arise as a result of consciousness (samkhara)
3)Material form (Ruppa) –This includes body, sex and seat of consciousness. The body-decade is composed of the Four Primary Elements –Extension, cohesion, heat, motion (Pathavi, apo, tejo, vayo)
4)Nirvana (Nibbaana) – Nirvana is an unconditioned reality. All other three are conditioned realities.
There are four stage of sainthood – Stream-winner (Sotapatti), Once-Returner (Sakadagami), Non-Returner (Anagami), Worthy (Arahatta)
I think that is on the right track. However it is also notable that it is listed as a separate category of it's own in the list of paramattha dhammas. Ultimately it really cannot be categorized under any heading with anything else per se, because it is the opposite of everything else, but when they were listing what can be considered nama as in "concepts" they put nibbana in the form of a play-on-words because the word "nama" shares a root with the word nam that means "to bend" because supramundane consciousness bends to it. So it is technically nama in this sense only.

A Manual of Abhidhamma, Bhikkhu Bodhi, Chapter VIII guide to 29:
The four immaterial aggregates are called nama, "name", in the sense of bending (namana) because they bend towards the object in the act of cognizing it. They are also called nama in the sense of causing to bend (nāmana) since they cause one another to bend on to the object. Nibbana is called nāma solely in the sense of causing to bend. For Nibbana causes faultless states-that is, the supramundane cittas and cetasikas-to bend on to itself by acting as an objective predominance condition5.
note 5:
There is a word-play here that cannot be reproduced in English: the word nāma, "name" or "mind", is derived from a verbal root nam meaning "to bend."
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

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