Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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zan
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Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan »

In the process of death, according to the Abhidhamma, a person will experience cuti citta and then patisandhi citta will arise which will be followed by sixteen moments of the bhavanga citta, seven javanas, and then the bhavanga arises again.

-paraphrased from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Chapter V guide to 41

I have read in many places that an Arahant will experience cuti citta at death but after it ceases no patisandhi citta will arise. However I cannot find a reference or source in any of the places that I have read this.

Where in the canon or commentary can this be found? I cannot find it in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
SarathW
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Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW »

What I can recall is Cuti citta is not applicable for Arahants.
Passing away of an Arahant is termed Parinibbana (Final Emancipation).
============
Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
zan
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Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan »

SarathW wrote:What I can recall is Cuti citta is not applicable for Arahants.
Passing away of an Arahant is termed Parinibbana (Final Emancipation).
============
Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
Thank you. I am looking specifically for the Abhidhammic/commentary description though the sutta reference is helpful and appreciated.

Do you know where I could find these processes explained in those texts?

I do not know about how it works in the suttas but I am fairly certain that, in the Abhidhamma/commentaries, Arahants do experience cuti citta, just not patisandhi citta because I have seen it said in many places, although, because I have yet to see a source or reference, I could very well be wrong. Below is a quote from another thread.
robertk wrote:In fact of course arahats and even buddhas have cuti citta ( death moment)
What they never have again is patisandhi citta.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=23722
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW »

Do you know where I could find these processes explained in those texts?
You find them in Abhidhamma. Start with this summary.


========
The Mind at the Time of Death
When a person is about to die the bhavaṅga is interrupted, vibrates for one moment and passes
away. The interruption is caused by an object which presents itself to the mind-door. As a result
of this a mind-door-adverting citta arises. This is followed by five javana thought moments
which are weak, lack reproductive power, and serve only to determine the nature of rebirth
consciousness. The javanas may or may not be followed by two registering thought moments
(tadālambana). After this comes the death consciousness (cuti citta), which is identical in
constitution and object to the bhavaṅga citta. The cuti citta merely serves the function of
11
signalling the end of life. It is important to appreciate the difference between the cuti citta and
the javanas that precede it. The cuti citta is the end of the bhavaṅga flow of an existence and does
not determine the nature of rebirth. The javanas that occur just before the cuti citta arises form a
kammic process and determine the nature of the rebirth consciousness.
The object that presents itself to the mind-door just before death is determined by kamma on a
priority basis as follows:
1) Some weighty action performed earlier by the dying person. This may be meritorious
such as a jhānic ecstasy, or it may be demeritorious, some heinous crime. Either of
................


https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh322.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW »

The way I understand Arahant do not die.
What die is the attachment, aversion and ignorance.
Arahant do not have them.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan »

SarathW wrote:
Do you know where I could find these processes explained in those texts?
You find them in Abhidhamma. Start with this summary.


========
The Mind at the Time of Death
When a person is about to die the bhavaṅga is interrupted, vibrates for one moment and passes
away. The interruption is caused by an object which presents itself to the mind-door. As a result
of this a mind-door-adverting citta arises. This is followed by five javana thought moments
which are weak, lack reproductive power, and serve only to determine the nature of rebirth
consciousness. The javanas may or may not be followed by two registering thought moments
(tadālambana). After this comes the death consciousness (cuti citta), which is identical in
constitution and object to the bhavaṅga citta. The cuti citta merely serves the function of
11
signalling the end of life. It is important to appreciate the difference between the cuti citta and
the javanas that precede it. The cuti citta is the end of the bhavaṅga flow of an existence and does
not determine the nature of rebirth. The javanas that occur just before the cuti citta arises form a
kammic process and determine the nature of the rebirth consciousness.
The object that presents itself to the mind-door just before death is determined by kamma on a
priority basis as follows:
1) Some weighty action performed earlier by the dying person. This may be meritorious
such as a jhānic ecstasy, or it may be demeritorious, some heinous crime. Either of
................


https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh322.pdf
Thank you but this text does not specify whether or not an Arahant experiences patisandhi citta.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
SarathW
Posts: 21226
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW »

Sorry I can't recall any other place in the Sutta.
As I mention before what dies is the thought of "I"
Arahants do not have the personal identification hence only the body disintegrate.
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
zan
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Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan »

SarathW wrote:Sorry I can't recall any other place in the Sutta.
Thanks anyway. I am fairly certain it is stated in the Abhidhamma as I found the words doing a search on sutta central but none of the relevant pages were translated into english :/
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW »

Yes we conventionally say that Arahant is dead.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
tinhtan
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Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by tinhtan »

I think you can find the answer in the function of patisandhi (rebirth-linking) which is only vipaka citta (resultant-consciousness - 19 cittas). (A Comprehensive of Abhidhamma - chapter III, compendium of functions, and Chapter V)
The patisandhi citta is resultant-consciousness of the Javana cittas just before cuti citta.
The Arahant has only kiriya citta (functional citta) in their javana cittas which do not produce any kamma, and so no vipaka citta will be produced , and by the way, no rebirth-linking citta.

Besh wishes
theY
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Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by theY »

It is already in paṭiccasamuppāda.

Viññāṇa is birth (paṭisandhi). Arahanta destroy paṭiccasamuppāda, so no birth anymore (no paṭisandhi).

Sutta-pali is definitely clear. It is not necessary to comment. So no need commentary for this case.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html
zan
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Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan »

theY wrote:It is already in paṭiccasamuppāda.

Viññāṇa is birth (paṭisandhi). Arahanta destroy paṭiccasamuppāda, so no birth anymore (no paṭisandhi).

Sutta-pali is definitely clear. It is not necessary to comment. So no need commentary for this case.
Good point. The issue is already unambiguous in the suttas themselves.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
Posts: 1402
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan »

tinhtan wrote:I think you can find the answer in the function of patisandhi (rebirth-linking) which is only vipaka citta (resultant-consciousness - 19 cittas). (A Comprehensive of Abhidhamma - chapter III, compendium of functions, and Chapter V)
The patisandhi citta is resultant-consciousness of the Javana cittas just before cuti citta.
The Arahant has only kiriya citta (functional citta) in their javana cittas which do not produce any kamma, and so no vipaka citta will be produced , and by the way, no rebirth-linking citta.

Besh wishes
Thank you.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by Ontheway »

Titthāyatanādi Suttaṃ (A.i.173)

http://aimwell.org/titthayatanadi.html
Appearance in the womb (gabbhassāvakkanti), often translated as “Descent into the womb,” but nothing descends from above. Rebirth can take place from the lower realms or the human realm into the human realm, as well as from the heavenly realms. Even in the case of the Bodhisatta’s decease from Tusita and taking rebirth in the womb it is misleading to say “descent,” since consciousness in Tusita ceased and rebirth-consciousness (paṭisandhi-viññāṇa) arose in the womb. I labour this point because a wrong-view may be adopted regarding the transmigration of consciousness. That view, which was held by Bhikkhu Sāti, was refuted by the Buddha in the Mahātaṇhasaṅkhaya Sutta.
A good point I found in Bhante Bhikkhu Pesala's link. :reading:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by Ontheway »

Just sharing some important excerpts from "Handbook of Abhidhamma Studies" about rebirth consciousness or Patisandhi Vinnana (which also known as 'bija' in Pathamabhava Sutta, or 'Gandhabba' in Mahātaṇhāsaṅkhaya Sutta).
What is important to remember in this thought process is that Patisandhi is not the result of Cuti. That we must understand. Many people fall into this error. They say Patisandhi is produced by Cuti. Actually Patisandhi is produced by Kamma. Which Kamma? It is Kamma in the past, not even Kamma at the five Javana moments. It is produced by past Kamma. Past Kamma means it may be in the long past or it may be just the close past. That means it may be Kamma acquired before this death thought process. Before this death thought process there are other thought processes going on and on like a stream of consciousness. At those times there is Kamma. That Kamma is also in the past. Patisandhi is produced by past Kamma; it is not produced by Cuti.

But we can say that Patisandhi Citta, Patisandhi consciousness, is conditioned by Cuti. That condition is proximity. It is called proximity condition — in other words giving place to. If death-consciousness does not disappear, Patisandhi cannot arise. Death-consciousness is a condition for Patisandhi consciousness to arise. In that sense Cuti is a condition for Patisandhi consciousness. It is not caused by but just gives place to it as a condition.

In order for you to sit in this place I will vacate this place. So I am a condition for you to be here. It is like that.
This should be firmly borne in mind because many people make this error of saying Patisandhi is caused by Cuti Citta. Cuti Citta is a Vipāka Citta. As a Vipāka Citta, it cannot give result. It is a result of other Kamma and so it does not have the power to give results. But it can be called a condition according to Patthāna because it arises and disappears before the Patisandhi Citta arises. So there can be no identical Kamma, Kamma-nimitta or Gati-nimitta for all existences, for all lives. The Kamma, Kamma-nimitta or Gati-nimitta of one life is different from Kamma, Kamma-nimitta or Gati-nimitta of all other lives.
In Abhidhamma or in the teachings of the Buddha there is no transferring of anything from one life to the other life.
Now the Patisandhi Citta arises and it arises as a result of Kamma in the past. It is not something carried over to the next life. That is what Abhidhamma teaches. So there are similes to explain this — the simile of an echo, the simile of a lamp, the simile of a seal. That means Patisandhi Citta arises not without a cause. Patisandhi Citta is not the cause; it is the result of the cause. When you shout into a cave, then the echo comes back. The echo is not your voice, but without your voice there can be no echo. In the same way, Patisandhi does not belong to the past lives, but it comes into being because of something in the past.

It is like an oil lamp. You light your lamp from another oil lamp. Your flame is not the same as the other one. That flame does not come into being, however, without the flame of the old lamp.

There is also the simile of the seal. When you put the seal on the paper, the impression of the seal is there. That impression transfers to the paper. Without that seal there can be no impression. So in the same way, what arises in the new life is not totally disconnected from something in the past life.

Not anything of the past lives is carried over to the next life.

That is how we explain this. Whatever arises at the moment of Patisandhi according to this teaching is the result of Kamma in the past — not something taken over to a new life. But there is a kind of continuity going on. So in conventional terms we say a person is reborn. For example, we say a Bodhisatta is reborn as a king. The Bodhisatta may be reborn as a human being, as a Deva or as an animal. Nothing in the past life is taken over to the next life. Something in the past life causes something to arise in the new life. Since it is the result of the cause, it may possess some of the qualities of the cause — not that the qualities are taken over to or transferred to the next life. They are themselves the results.

It is like when you grow a mango tree, you get mango fruit. In the same way, the result in the next life is similar to the causes in the past lives. This is how we should understand this life and the next life.
Patisandhi Vinnana is an important topic and we should understand it clearly in order to understand how "Vinnana paccaya Namarupa" works. Failure to understand this mechanism of Patisandhi Vinnana will either leads to the belief of "Antarabhava" or quasi-"Sassatavada" like the modern Sauntrantikas.

All have Patisandhi Vinnana after Cuti Vinnana except for Arahants.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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