Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries

Moderator: Mahavihara moderator

Post Reply
zan
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:12 am

In the process of death, according to the Abhidhamma, a person will experience cuti citta and then patisandhi citta will arise which will be followed by sixteen moments of the bhavanga citta, seven javanas, and then the bhavanga arises again.

-paraphrased from the Abhidhammattha Sangaha translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Chapter V guide to 41

I have read in many places that an Arahant will experience cuti citta at death but after it ceases no patisandhi citta will arise. However I cannot find a reference or source in any of the places that I have read this.

Where in the canon or commentary can this be found? I cannot find it in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

SarathW
Posts: 8250
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:18 am

What I can recall is Cuti citta is not applicable for Arahants.
Passing away of an Arahant is termed Parinibbana (Final Emancipation).
============
Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

zan
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 1:40 pm

SarathW wrote:What I can recall is Cuti citta is not applicable for Arahants.
Passing away of an Arahant is termed Parinibbana (Final Emancipation).
============
Rising from the first jhana, he entered the second jhana. Rising from the second jhana, he entered the third jhana. Rising from the third jhana, he entered the fourth jhana. And, rising from the fourth jhana, the Blessed One immediately passed away.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
Thank you. I am looking specifically for the Abhidhammic/commentary description though the sutta reference is helpful and appreciated.

Do you know where I could find these processes explained in those texts?

I do not know about how it works in the suttas but I am fairly certain that, in the Abhidhamma/commentaries, Arahants do experience cuti citta, just not patisandhi citta because I have seen it said in many places, although, because I have yet to see a source or reference, I could very well be wrong. Below is a quote from another thread.
robertk wrote:In fact of course arahats and even buddhas have cuti citta ( death moment)
What they never have again is patisandhi citta.
https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=23722
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

SarathW
Posts: 8250
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:42 pm

Do you know where I could find these processes explained in those texts?
You find them in Abhidhamma. Start with this summary.


========
The Mind at the Time of Death
When a person is about to die the bhavaṅga is interrupted, vibrates for one moment and passes
away. The interruption is caused by an object which presents itself to the mind-door. As a result
of this a mind-door-adverting citta arises. This is followed by five javana thought moments
which are weak, lack reproductive power, and serve only to determine the nature of rebirth
consciousness. The javanas may or may not be followed by two registering thought moments
(tadālambana). After this comes the death consciousness (cuti citta), which is identical in
constitution and object to the bhavaṅga citta. The cuti citta merely serves the function of
11
signalling the end of life. It is important to appreciate the difference between the cuti citta and
the javanas that precede it. The cuti citta is the end of the bhavaṅga flow of an existence and does
not determine the nature of rebirth. The javanas that occur just before the cuti citta arises form a
kammic process and determine the nature of the rebirth consciousness.
The object that presents itself to the mind-door just before death is determined by kamma on a
priority basis as follows:
1) Some weighty action performed earlier by the dying person. This may be meritorious
such as a jhānic ecstasy, or it may be demeritorious, some heinous crime. Either of
................


https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh322.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
Posts: 8250
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:52 pm

The way I understand Arahant do not die.
What die is the attachment, aversion and ignorance.
Arahant do not have them.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

zan
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:20 pm

SarathW wrote:
Do you know where I could find these processes explained in those texts?
You find them in Abhidhamma. Start with this summary.


========
The Mind at the Time of Death
When a person is about to die the bhavaṅga is interrupted, vibrates for one moment and passes
away. The interruption is caused by an object which presents itself to the mind-door. As a result
of this a mind-door-adverting citta arises. This is followed by five javana thought moments
which are weak, lack reproductive power, and serve only to determine the nature of rebirth
consciousness. The javanas may or may not be followed by two registering thought moments
(tadālambana). After this comes the death consciousness (cuti citta), which is identical in
constitution and object to the bhavaṅga citta. The cuti citta merely serves the function of
11
signalling the end of life. It is important to appreciate the difference between the cuti citta and
the javanas that precede it. The cuti citta is the end of the bhavaṅga flow of an existence and does
not determine the nature of rebirth. The javanas that occur just before the cuti citta arises form a
kammic process and determine the nature of the rebirth consciousness.
The object that presents itself to the mind-door just before death is determined by kamma on a
priority basis as follows:
1) Some weighty action performed earlier by the dying person. This may be meritorious
such as a jhānic ecstasy, or it may be demeritorious, some heinous crime. Either of
................


https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh322.pdf
Thank you but this text does not specify whether or not an Arahant experiences patisandhi citta.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

SarathW
Posts: 8250
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:08 pm

Sorry I can't recall any other place in the Sutta.
As I mention before what dies is the thought of "I"
Arahants do not have the personal identification hence only the body disintegrate.
Last edited by SarathW on Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

zan
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:12 pm

SarathW wrote:Sorry I can't recall any other place in the Sutta.
Thanks anyway. I am fairly certain it is stated in the Abhidhamma as I found the words doing a search on sutta central but none of the relevant pages were translated into english :/
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

SarathW
Posts: 8250
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 09, 2017 9:16 pm

Yes we conventionally say that Arahant is dead.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

tinhtan
Posts: 20
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:32 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by tinhtan » Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:07 am

I think you can find the answer in the function of patisandhi (rebirth-linking) which is only vipaka citta (resultant-consciousness - 19 cittas). (A Comprehensive of Abhidhamma - chapter III, compendium of functions, and Chapter V)
The patisandhi citta is resultant-consciousness of the Javana cittas just before cuti citta.
The Arahant has only kiriya citta (functional citta) in their javana cittas which do not produce any kamma, and so no vipaka citta will be produced , and by the way, no rebirth-linking citta.

Besh wishes

theY
Posts: 309
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
Contact:

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by theY » Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:42 pm

It is already in paṭiccasamuppāda.

Viññāṇa is birth (paṭisandhi). Arahanta destroy paṭiccasamuppāda, so no birth anymore (no paṭisandhi).

Sutta-pali is definitely clear. It is not necessary to comment. So no need commentary for this case.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

zan
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:32 pm

theY wrote:It is already in paṭiccasamuppāda.

Viññāṇa is birth (paṭisandhi). Arahanta destroy paṭiccasamuppāda, so no birth anymore (no paṭisandhi).

Sutta-pali is definitely clear. It is not necessary to comment. So no need commentary for this case.
Good point. The issue is already unambiguous in the suttas themselves.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

zan
Posts: 460
Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:57 pm

Re: Cuti citta and patisandhi citta

Post by zan » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:33 pm

tinhtan wrote:I think you can find the answer in the function of patisandhi (rebirth-linking) which is only vipaka citta (resultant-consciousness - 19 cittas). (A Comprehensive of Abhidhamma - chapter III, compendium of functions, and Chapter V)
The patisandhi citta is resultant-consciousness of the Javana cittas just before cuti citta.
The Arahant has only kiriya citta (functional citta) in their javana cittas which do not produce any kamma, and so no vipaka citta will be produced , and by the way, no rebirth-linking citta.

Besh wishes
Thank you.
I don't have much knowledge of the Dhamma, I'm just a beginner. Keep that in mind before you take anything I say too seriously :tongue:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests