Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Taught

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theY
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Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Taught

Post by theY » Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:23 am

Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Taught Him Directly
Abhidhamma is sutta, that sariputta learned from buddha. Sariputta and buddha taught abhidhamma to whole of 500 arahanta, then 500 arahanta bless it in 1st sangayana. So abhidhamma have difference linguistics from sutta, of ananda. Ananda memorized whole sutta, that buddha have taught to another. But sariputta memorized the reasons (relation) of everything, that buddha taught him directly. Age of buddhist cannon linguistics having the same time being. Buddha taught someone, then he repeat sutta to ananda. Buddha repeat sutta with description, that ananda ask him, commentary. Each sutta description have many causes and effects, so it make commentary very long, hard to memorize, long time to learn, and confusion. Summary of causes and effects is abhidhamma, that buddha taught to sariputta, who buddha declared as "the best dhamma teacher (like him)", to let him know the whole causes and effects that possible have.

Why buddha taught sariputta? Because sariputta ask him.

So most of abhidhamma is "Q&A" like commentary.

The history of buddhism, that we have learned from the western is not perfect enough. Many words that they overlook. It made them have wrong decisions and view.

http://unmixedtheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... rized.html
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Buddha Vacana
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Buddha Vacana » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:05 am

Does the author provide any kind of evidence or clue leading to that conclusion, aside from speculations?

theY
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by theY » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:22 am

Buddha Vacana wrote:Does the author provide any kind of evidence or clue leading to that conclusion, aside from speculations?
Hello, Goukrit. How about your new dipitaka?
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

Buddha Vacana
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Buddha Vacana » Fri Jan 20, 2017 11:56 am

Hi, theY

Pardon this tangential question, but what is a "goukrit"?

Generally, it is advisable to provide cogent arguments when making a claim, especially about what happened at the Buddha's time. The exercise would certainly benefit us.

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Twilight
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Twilight » Fri Jan 20, 2017 12:50 pm

Abbhidhamma is a latter addition to buddhism only found in theravada tradition. Any scholar will tell you it was added centuries after the pali canon and it has different linguistics.

For 500 years, all monks were forced to memorize the sutta pitakka and vinaya pittaka. That is already 10.000pages + vinaya pitakka to memorize. And now you are telling us abbhidhamma was also memorised by them but for some reason they wrote it down 3 centuries after sutta pitakka ?? And the ideas presented in there such a "momentariness" are different than the Sutta Pitakka.

Any scholar in the world laughs at such claims that Abbhidamma is from the same period as Sutta Pitakka given the linguistics, the ideas presented in it, the date at witch it was written down. Only people in Myanmar worship the Abbhidhama more than they worship the Sutta Pitakka.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

theY
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by theY » Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:14 pm

Buddha Vacana wrote:Hi, theY

Pardon this tangential question, but what is a "goukrit"?
Your boss.
Generally, it is advisable to provide cogent arguments when making a claim, especially about what happened at the Buddha's time. The exercise would certainly benefit us.
Your application have not abhidhamma, commentary, and sub-commentary, so how can I reference it to be evidence to you, goukrit's student?

I can explain this topic by only tipitaka, without commentary. But it will be only my own view, like your teacher view. So I have to use commentary as a claimer. But your application don't have it. So I can't not explain it to you. I don't have a tools for you.

Especially your institute. I'm sorry :anjali:
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by theY » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:14 pm

Twilight wrote:Abbhidhamma is a latter addition to buddhism only found in theravada tradition. Any scholar will tell you it was added centuries after the pali canon and it has different linguistics.

For 500 years, all monks were forced to memorize the sutta pitakka and vinaya pittaka. That is already 10.000pages + vinaya pitakka to memorize. And now you are telling us abbhidhamma was also memorised by them but for some reason they wrote it down 3 centuries after sutta pitakka ?? And the ideas presented in there such a "momentariness" are different than the Sutta Pitakka.

Any scholar in the world laughs at such claims that Abbhidamma is from the same period as Sutta Pitakka given the linguistics, the ideas presented in it, the date at witch it was written down. Only people in Myanmar worship the Abbhidhama more than they worship the Sutta Pitakka.
I laugh when I see "scholar" in your reply.

ํYour information is just a set that scholars forced gave to you. My mom also said "learn with your teacher child!" to me, when I was a teenager. It is enough for me to listen them.

But when I learn tipitaka more, I discovered "many thing that scholar told me is conjecture".

The example:
  1. Memorizing of arahanta is better than writing of puthujana, by logic.
  2. Whole theravada-tipitaka wrote in 4th sangayana, not only abhidhamma.
  3. Commentary must come together tipitaka, because on one can not learn "any article for the other", without explaination and example.
  4. Commentator is buddha and sariputta.
  5. etc.
It already become in tipitaka and commentary. But they don't want to waste their kamasukkhallikanuyoga-time to learn it.

So they tell you only they wanna let you know. It is not the whole truth.

I can not explain to you all in a day or month. But if you read and reseach on every document, that I will refer as evidence, in the future topics, you will gradually understand tipitaka and commentary more.

The future topic such as: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=28376
or such as http://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File ... t_know.pdf
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Twilight
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Twilight » Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:52 pm

-False. The Abbhidhama did not exist until 3rd buddhist council.
-It is not recognized by other early buddhist schools.
-Buddha outlived Sariputta.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

theY
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by theY » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:08 am

Twilight wrote:-False. The Abbhidhama did not exist until 3rd buddhist council.
You can talk with scholar payutto in this book:
http://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File ... rectly.pdf

He is Invited lecturers at Pennsylvania University in 2515, and Invited lecturers at Swarthmore College, USA. In 2519 he is visiting scholar and research fellow at Divinity Faculty of Harvard University.

I hope this book you deserve. It have many reference, clearly more than your obsolete book.
-It is not recognized by other early buddhist schools.
It is not recognized by minorities of 18 nikaya (school), before 3th sangayana, not whole. Most of 18 nikaya accept abhidhamma. We can see abhidhamma in their books.
Buddha outlived Sariputta.
I wrote "Age of buddhist cannon linguistics having the same time being. Buddha taught someone, then he repeat sutta to ananda. Buddha repeat sutta with description, that ananda ask him, commentary".
Twilight wrote:I have a question for you. How do you translate "samadhi" ?
Sama as "samaṃ". Dhara as "dhārati". That's all. You don't gave me any contexts. So I can not translate out of samadhi word.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Twilight
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:29 am

theY wrote: Sama as "samaṃ". Dhara as "dhārati". That's all. You don't gave me any contexts. So I can not translate out of samadhi word.
I asked out of curiosity because I have saw you translate other things better. I meant in the context of meditation/jhana. Some translate "concentration" and some translate "ecstasy"
He is Invited lecturers at Pennsylvania University in 2515, and Invited lecturers at Swarthmore College, USA. In 2519 he is visiting scholar and research fellow at Divinity Faculty of Harvard University.

I hope this book you deserve. It have many reference, clearly more than your obsolete book.
The abbhidhamma was not recited at the first or second buddhist council. It was only recited at the 3rd buddhist council.
I wrote "Age of buddhist cannon linguistics having the same time being. Buddha taught someone, then he repeat sutta to ananda. Buddha repeat sutta with description, that ananda ask him, commentary".
They say abhidhamma was taught by Sariputta. Sariputta died before Buddha.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

theY
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Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:07 pm
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by theY » Sat Jan 21, 2017 12:51 am

Twilight wrote:
theY wrote: Sama as "samaṃ". Dhara as "dhārati". That's all. You don't gave me any contexts. So I can not translate out of samadhi word.
I asked out of curiosity because I have saw you translate other things better. I meant in the context of meditation/jhana. Some translate "concentration" and some translate "ecstasy"
Pali already translated itself as jhana.

It is not nescessary to translate it for me. I use pali's definition to explain itself. Sometime I use an pali-engelish/thai dictionary, but I saw the definitions and evidences. I have not to see translate, except I will talk to someone.

It look like you use oxford dictionary to see definition and example of "apple" word, not translated "apple" in another word. So I have not to translate, but I fine the defination from tipitaka, and some time commentary point me, where it is in tipitaka.
He is Invited lecturers at Pennsylvania University in 2515, and Invited lecturers at Swarthmore College, USA. In 2519 he is visiting scholar and research fellow at Divinity Faculty of Harvard University.

I hope this book you deserve. It have many reference, clearly more than your obsolete book.
I give you a book of scholar. So I told about him, P.A. Payutto.

Another, physically commentary appear already in tipitaka, too, Such as "evamme suttam", etc. It is commentary by ananda.
The abbhidhamma was not recited at the first or second buddhist council. It was only recited at the 3rd buddhist council.
Ancient commentary, also noted "abhidhamma and ancient commentary recited in 1st sangayana". But It separately recited, not mix with tipitaka. Only remark of ananda added in sutta. It also is commentary, not real buddha vacana. Commentary describe that it is not buddha's word. It is ananda word.

It is already recited while buddha living. You can see abhidhamma in sutta, upali's book, sariputta's book, ancient commentary.

Only kathavatthu book, in 7 abhidhamma book, author in 3nd sangayana. Some texts in some thera books added, by their students, to remark some thing, after 1st sangayana. Most of them can easy notice. Commentary also tell us "it is after sangayana".

Tipitaka and commentary clear themselves, but reader never read it as it is.
I wrote "Age of buddhist cannon linguistics having the same time being. Buddha taught someone, then he repeat sutta to ananda. Buddha repeat sutta with description, that ananda ask him, commentary".
They say abhidhamma was taught by Sariputta. Sariputta died before Buddha.
But his many students such as ananda, kassapa, anuruddha, upali, still alive. We all known that they were 500 bhikkhu in 1st sangayana.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Twilight
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:03 pm

It is already recited while buddha living. You can see abhidhamma in sutta, upali's book, sariputta's book, ancient commentary.
"Abbhidhamma" word in sutta simply means "explaining in detail". It has nothing to do with the abbhidhamma book.
But his many students such as ananda, kassapa, anuruddha, upali, still alive. We all known that they were 500 bhikkhu in 1st sangayana.
But why do they had to lie about Abhidhamma been recited by Sariputta ? And why was the abhidhamma not recited at first and second buddhist council ?
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jan 21, 2017 7:16 pm

Twilight wrote:[
But why do they had to lie about Abhidhamma been recited by Sariputta ? And why was the abhidhamma not recited at first and second buddhist council ?
Since this is the Abhidhamma section, the Classical interpretations are taken as the starting point. Please respect the guidelines for this section of the forum. Thank you.

:coffee:
Mike

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Twilight
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2017 8:18 pm

Sorry but I have not made claims about the contents of the abbhidhamma. I had only expressed disapproval about authenticity claims made over here such as: Sariputta who died before the Buddha memorizing the abbhidhama as a form of secret teaching when we know that Buddha said he had not kept anything secret from us. Claims that is was recited at the first buddhist council, that western scholars got it all wrong and the brumese know better etc.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

User avatar
mikenz66
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Location: New Zealand

Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:22 am

Any more posts arguing with the authenticity of the Abhidhamma (and possibly the past posts if we find time) will be deleted or moved, probably to here:
The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2169

The point about having different areas of this Forum is that members who want to discuss particular areas don't have to wade though endless, pointless posts arguing against the subject that they are trying to discuss. Please respect the rules.

:anjali:
Mike

Buddha Vacana
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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Buddha Vacana » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:32 am

Perhaps you could move the entire thread including the OP over there then?

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Re: Linguistics Reason: Ananda Memorized Sutta For The Other, But Sariputta Memorized Abhidhamma That Buddha Directly Ta

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Jan 22, 2017 2:44 pm

theY wrote:
Buddha Vacana wrote:Hi, theY

Pardon this tangential question, but what is a "goukrit"?
Your boss.
Generally, it is advisable to provide cogent arguments when making a claim, especially about what happened at the Buddha's time. The exercise would certainly benefit us.
Your application have not abhidhamma, commentary, and sub-commentary, so how can I reference it to be evidence to you, goukrit's student?

I can explain this topic by only tipitaka, without commentary. But it will be only my own view, like your teacher view. So I have to use commentary as a claimer. But your application don't have it. So I can't not explain it to you. I don't have a tools for you.

Especially your institute. I'm sorry
I think you have jumped to a wrong conclusion here. Our member Buddha Vacana is from France and (as far as I know) has no connection with the พุทธวจนะ organization of Phra Kukrit Sotthiphalo in Thailand. Nor (as far as I know) does Buddha Vacana make any use of the พุทธวจนะ organization's software application. That they are both called "Buddhavacana" is just a coincidence.

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