Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

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Coëmgenu
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Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by Coëmgenu » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:22 pm

Greetings all,

So I've recently started reading through the Kathavatthu, more as a leisure excersize in reading than anything, as the Abhidhamma is quite beyond me in complexities both textual and intertextual. And I stumbled across Kathavatthy 9.2. For ease of reading I'll put it here, since it a shorter passage:
Controverted Point: That the Deathless as an object of thought is a “fetter.”

Theravādin: If you say that, are you prepared to admit that the Deathless is the object of consciousness accompanied by “Fetters,” “Ties,” “Floods,” “Bonds,” “Hindrances,” “Infections,” “Graspings,” “Corruptions”? Is it not rather an object accompanied by the very opposite?

You affirm that, on account of the Deathless occupying the mind, lust, hate, ignorance may spring up. But are you prepared to admit that the Deathless itself conduces to occasions for lusting, to lusting after, wishing for, being inebriated, and captivated by, languishing for? That it conduces to occasions for hatred, anger, and resentment? That it conduces to occasions for delusion, for depriving of knowledge, for blinding vision, for suspending insight, for siding with trouble, for failing to win Nibbāna? Is it not rather the opposite of all these? How then can you say that, on account of the Deathless occupying the mind, lust, hate, and ignorance spring up? All these things you may truly predicate as springing up because of the occupation of the mind with material qualities (rūpa). But material qualities are not the Deathless.

You would not say that, whereas the Fetters spring up because of material qualities, the latter do not conduce to Fetters, Ties, Floods, and all such spiritual defects and dangers. How then can you affirm just the same of the Deathless: that, whereas the Fetters spring up because of it, it does not conduce to Fetters, and so forth? Or that, whereas lust, hate, and ignorance spring up because of the Deathless, nevertheless the Deathless is not an occasion for lusting and all the rest?

Pubbaseliyas: But was it not said by the Exalted One:

“He perceives Nibbāna as such, and having perceived it he imagines things about Nibbāna, with respect to Nibbāna, things as Nibbāna, that ‘Nibbāna is mine,’ dallying with the idea.”

Therefore the Deathless is an object of thought not yet freed from bondage.


Keeping in mind that I considered myself a "Dhamma n00b", one of the reasons I don't consider my reading of the Abhidhamma to be a "serious" reading, I have some probably-basic questions about some of the terminology employed and the relation of the English translation to the Pali.

Who is Pubbaseliyas? This character offers a conclusion to the discourse given by the Theravādin. The conclusion is also very strange to me, because it seems to contradict what the Theravādin's discourse is in the middle.

The way I understand it, after my own meagre reading, is that someone suggests that calling Nibbana "the deathless" is a fetter. The Theravādin seems to say, in responce, that the fetters are to be found on the part of the thinker, not on the part of concept of "the deathless" itself. Then Pubbaseliyas concludes that "the deathless" is indeed a fetter.

What is "bondage" in this context? Particularly in reference to the last sentence.

And my last question is about the translation. The Pali starts with
Amatārammaṇaṃ saṃyojananti? Āmantā. Amataṃ saṃyojaniyaṃ ganthaniyaṃ oghaniyaṃ yoganiyaṃ nīvaraṇiyaṃ parāmaṭṭhaṃ upādāniyaṃ saṃkilesiyanti?


Now setting aside the fact that the English translation probably has a lot of guiding interpretation in it, given the complexity of the text, but there are several questions in the Pali, and only one in the English. It also doesn't seem to have headings "controverted point" "Theravādin" and "Pubbaseliyas" in it.

:anjali:
-Caoimhghím
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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mikenz66
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Nov 12, 2016 7:30 pm

Hi Coëmgenu,

Interesting questions. Though it's new easy to find, thanks to Sutta Central, it would be helpful to give a link:
https://suttacentral.net/en/kv9.2

The Pubbaseliya skook is mentioned here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Buddhist_schools
but with no details...
See also: https://books.google.co.nz/books?id=s1P ... as&f=false


:anjali:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by SarathW » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:04 pm

is that someone suggests that calling Nibbana "the deathless" is a fetter.
Actually it is not the point here.
Whether Keeping deathless (Nibbana) as an object a fetter.
There is a Sutta to support what Pubbasilayas arguing about.
But it appears they understood it incorrectly.
What Theravadin argues is that when you have deathless as an object it is wholesome so it is not a fetter.
What is wrong (fetter) is not keeping Nibbana as the object but taking Nibbana as I,me and myself is the fetter.

Bhante Dhammanado is the best person to answer this question.
There is book recommended by Ven. D that gives further explanations about Katahvatthu.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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robertk
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:19 am

repeat

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robertk
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:20 am

the pubbies misunderstood the sutta..
The Buddha was referring to someone(people like us) having ideas , concepts, about nibbana and clinging etc to such concepts.

But nibbana itself, taken as object, cannot be clung to. "It" is not to blame for peoples imagination..

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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:39 am

Coëmgenu wrote:Now setting aside the fact that the English translation probably has a lot of guiding interpretation in it, given the complexity of the text, but there are several questions in the Pali, and only one in the English.
Read the translator's prefatory notes. The translation is heavily truncated (except for the first argument on the Puggalavāda) and the reader has to imagine each question being expanded using the logical permutations described by S.Z. Aung on pages xlviii - l.
Coëmgenu wrote:It also doesn't seem to have headings "controverted point" "Theravādin" and "Pubbaseliyas" in it.
The canonical Kathāvatthu simply presents debates on controversial views and interpretations, but without ever stating who holds the views in question. The attribution of the views to particular schools comes from the Kathāvatthu Commentary and the translator proceeds on the assumption that this attribution is correct.

"Controverted point" is the translator's rendering of vatthu. This too is from the Commentary.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:48 am

robertk wrote:the pubbies misunderstood the sutta..
The Buddha was referring to someone(people like us) having ideas , concepts, about nibbana and clinging etc to such concepts.

But nibbana itself, taken as object, cannot be clung to. "It" is not to blame for peoples imagination..
This was the general message I got from the section labeled "Theravadin", which made the conclusion even more mystifying.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:13 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Coëmgenu wrote:Now setting aside the fact that the English translation probably has a lot of guiding interpretation in it, given the complexity of the text, but there are several questions in the Pali, and only one in the English.
Read the translator's prefatory notes. The translation is heavily truncated (except for the first argument on the Puggalavāda) and the reader has to imagine each question being expanded using the logical permutations described by S.Z. Aung on pages xlviii - l.
Coëmgenu wrote:It also doesn't seem to have headings "controverted point" "Theravādin" and "Pubbaseliyas" in it.
The canonical Kathāvatthu simply presents debates on controversial views and interpretations, but without ever stating who holds the views in question. The attribution of the views to particular schools comes from the Kathāvatthu Commentary and the translator proceeds on the assumption that this attribution is correct.

"Controverted point" is the translator's rendering of vatthu. This too is from the Commentary.
Thanks you, Venerable.

(I assume? I don't know many users on this sight, so I apologize if I have "mis-monked" you).

I went looking for the introduction and translators notes but suttacentral just seems to have the translation alone. I will endeavour to look for a complete edition with introduction/translators notes though, if I can find one online.
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

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robertk
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by robertk » Sun Nov 13, 2016 2:33 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
robertk wrote:the pubbies misunderstood the sutta..
The Buddha was referring to someone(people like us) having ideas , concepts, about nibbana and clinging etc to such concepts.

But nibbana itself, taken as object, cannot be clung to. "It" is not to blame for peoples imagination..
This was the general message I got from the section labeled "Theravadin", which made the conclusion even more mystifying.
As ven. Dhammanando indicated this is what you need
https://store.pariyatti.org/Debates-Com ... _1957.html
many more explanation in most cases (not so much on this particular point though)

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Dhammanando
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Re: Beginner Terminology and Kathavatthu 9.2

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:15 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:I went looking for the introduction and translators notes but suttacentral just seems to have the translation alone. I will endeavour to look for a complete edition with introduction/translators notes though, if I can find one online.
The translations of both the Kathāvatthu and its commentary are among the works on which the PTS has removed copyright restrictions. Both are available from archive.org

Points of Controversy
https://archive.org/details/PointsOfCon ... athavatthu

The Debates Commentary
https://archive.org/download/TFIC_ASI_Books

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