What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

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subaru
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What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru » Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:39 am

In the context of analyzing the 5 aggregates (Khandas), the 121 Consciousness (Cittas) and the 52 Mental State (Cetasikas) and the Mental Formation (Sankhara).

1) I know that 'something' among the 52 Cetasikas (the same thing is also present in the Cittas , also in the Sankhara, therefore it's also present in the Khandas) that has wrongly believe that there is a SELF.

So what is the name of that Cetasika?? is it Moha (delusion)? I know that Moha (Avijja ignorance) give rise to Sakayaditthi. In other word Ignorance is responsible for perception of SELF, this is what I can understand. But does it mean that Moha (Avijja) is thinking it is SELF?

or perhaps is the culprit Sanna (Perception) ? ie does it mean ignorance cause perception to believe in self?

or is it the Cetasika called "Ditthi" that is thinking there is a SELF? ie does it mean ignorance cause Ditthi to believe in self?

which mental state(s) is the culprit?

2) I doubt it is "Sati" <---- IF THIS STATEMENT IS TRUE, that means the idea of SELF only occurs when one is engrossed in the Sankhara, am I correct?

Because when Sati is present, one cannot get entangled within Sankhara .. Sati and Sankhara are mutually exclusive, am I correct?

Thank You..
Last edited by subaru on Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Oct 10, 2015 8:59 am

I think it is wrong view (diṭṭhi) that is the culprit rather than delusion (moho) because that is not destroyed until Arahantship is attained.
akusalacetasikaṃ

5. Moho ahirikaṃ anottappaṃ uddhaccaṃ lobho diṭṭhi māno doso issā macchariyaṃ kukkuccaṃ thinaṃ middhaṃ vicikicchā ceti cuddasime cetasikā akusalā nāma.
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subaru
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:04 am

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I think it is wrong view (diṭṭhi) that is the culprit rather than delusion (moho) because that is not destroyed until Arahantship is attained.
akusalacetasikaṃ

5. Moho ahirikaṃ anottappaṃ uddhaccaṃ lobho diṭṭhi māno doso issā macchariyaṃ kukkuccaṃ thinaṃ middhaṃ vicikicchā ceti cuddasime cetasikā akusalā nāma.

Good Evening Bhante.. That is a very good observation. something I should seriously investigate further
Thank you Bhante
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Goofaholix » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:49 pm

The belief is conditioned, something conditioned is going to have multiple contributing factors. I don't really see why there would be only one process buying into this view/belief.
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by SarathW » Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:51 am

As far as I understand, Bhawanga consciousness is the process that believe in self.
Latent tendency (Anussaya) also a result of the belief in self.
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by robertk » Mon Oct 12, 2015 12:08 pm

SarathW wrote:As far as I understand, Bhawanga consciousness is the process that believe in self.
Latent tendency (Anussaya) also a result of the belief in self.
Bhavanga takes an object which is not known to us- like in deep sleep and has nothing to do with self view .
Dithhi- view- arises during the javana processes.

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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by SarathW » Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:42 pm

I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru » Tue Oct 13, 2015 12:06 am

Why is it whenever I try to investigate Mental States, Dependent Arising, Bhava, Sankhara, I get this strange feeling similar to that of when I was investigating Quantum Physics? It doesn't follow conventional logic, nothing is deterministic.
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:56 am

SarathW wrote:I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna. These three arise with lobhamūla akusala-cittas. The bhavaṅga, being merely a passive vipāka-citta, is not accompanied by these three and therefore cannot be held responsible for generating the illusion of self.

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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:01 am

Dhammanando wrote:
SarathW wrote:I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna. These three arise with lobhamūla akusala-cittas. The bhavaṅga, being merely a passive vipāka-citta, is not accompanied by these three and therefore cannot be held responsible for generating the illusion of self.
Bhante, Am I correct to think that mental formation (Sankhara sometimes known as Volition) is PAST event, but bhavanga is determining the FUTURE?
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:19 am

subaru wrote:Bhante, Am I correct to think that mental formation (Sankhara sometimes known as Volition) is PAST event, but bhavanga is determining the FUTURE?
My post had to do with the micro-scale of Abhidhammic momentarism, whereas you seem to be alluding to the macro-scale of the three-life exposition of dependent arising. It is in the context of the latter that saṅkhāras are treated as belonging to the past, and in the same context, bhava (not bhavaṅga), is treated as a future event.

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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:23 am

Dhammanando wrote:
subaru wrote:Bhante, Am I correct to think that mental formation (Sankhara sometimes known as Volition) is PAST event, but bhavanga is determining the FUTURE?
My post had to do with the micro-scale of Abhidhammic momentarism, whereas you seem to be alluding to the macro-scale of the three-life exposition of dependent arising. It is in the context of the latter that saṅkhāras are treated as belonging to the past, and in the same context, bhava (not bhavaṅga), is treated as a future event.
ok make sense, I am less confused now.. still confused nevertheless
Thank you Bhante
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru » Tue Oct 13, 2015 2:40 am

######### Conversation with self aka Sankhara mode #############

Self1: Why do you need to know the name of the mental process? Go practice, no need to think so much, thinking is bad for you
Self2: Perhaps if I know the name, I can identify it when I encounter it?
Self1: What if it don't exist?
Self2: Are you saying Cetasikas dont exist? Sankhara don't exist? Ludicrous, even if it exist momentarily, it exist
Self1: I have no idea.. u know better... ok after you ask the question get out of this Sankhara mode
Self2: ok make sense, let's

######### out of Sankhara mode #######

####### in Sati mode #####
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by phil » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:09 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
SarathW wrote:I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna.
Dear Bhante

Perhaps off topic but could you explain briefly why tanhaa, ditthi and maana are called papanca, papanca is like proliferation, right? So do those three factors always involve proliferation of thinking, something like that?

Thanks

Phil
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by jagodage » Mon Jan 18, 2016 9:50 am

Bhanthe Dhammanando mentioned as



" The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna. These three arise with lobhamūla akusala-cittas. The bhavaṅga, being merely a passive vipāka-citta, is not accompanied by these three and therefore cannot be held responsible for generating the illusion of self "

Out of three, ditthi and mana are Uddambagiya sanyojana as this is pertain to Asmimana. My question is what does I making in Sakkaya ditthi .Are they same or different?

Jagodage

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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Jones » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:10 pm

According to the noble Pali Canon none of the aggregates are to be considered as "self" respectfully. The conciousness, and mental factors included. Just processes occurring. Does that not mean instead of trying to explain a "self", it is non-self instead? Is trying to explain a "self" not wrong view? Is Nibbana translated as a negative prefix Un-Binding? Can what is beyond the aggregates be found with the aggregates, or by seeing the aggregates, then letting them go? In the Vibhanga (The Book of Analysis) the supra-mundane is translated as Un-included, by Venerable U Thittila. Dissassociation condition. Letting go, relinquishment. Even the process of explaining wether there is a self or not a self is non-self, everything is non-self, not self, no self, no self to be seen, anywhere inside or outside of the five aggregates, the sense bases, dependant origination, and dependent cessation, conciousness cognizing, along with mental factors, matter and Nibbana is all non-self. Nowhere in the pali Canon has the Buddha said there is any stable enduring self, or the abhidhamma, which is said to be non-self. Although Bhante's post explains the best.

postby Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:59 am

"I think it is wrong view (diṭṭhi) that is the culprit rather than delusion (moho) because that is not destroyed until Arahantship is attained. "

"He develops the basis of psychic potency which consists of investigation, and volitional formations of striving".


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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by The Thinker » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:29 am

Wondered if you could help with a definition of the word "Bhavanga" and location within the suttas?
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by dhamma follower » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:09 am

The Thinker wrote:Wondered if you could help with a definition of the word "Bhavanga" and location within the suttas?
Hi The Thinker,

"Bhavanga" means life-continuum. It is the consciousness that arises at the moment of rebirth, then throughout life in between the processes of cognition through the six sense doors. An example of the bhavanga is the state of being fast asleep. At those moments, there's no experiences through the six sense doors, even thinking. But the so called person is not dead during that time, only no experiencing of the world. It doesn't mean that there's no consciousness anymore. The consciousness then has a special object, which is not the object of this world, but the object of the last mind door process of his/her previous life, that's why nothing is known about it.

Even when we are not fast asleep, but during waking states, there are countless bhavangas that arise and fall away between the processes of hearing and seeing and so on, but since their life-span is unimaginable short, we don't realize them.

I am not sure this term is found in the sutta, others might tell you more about that, but you might consider that it is the term that is given to a state that occurs so commonly in our daily life, and a state that is not easily object of sati-sampajana of ordinary people. However, knowing about it gives us a more complete picture of the anattaness of what we call life, and lives.

Brgrds,

D.F

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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by The Thinker » Thu Feb 04, 2016 7:49 pm

Thank you dhamma follower for your translation.
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by justindesilva » Wed Jul 27, 2016 4:34 pm

The process of vingnana is like a flame. It keeps burning. But the flame looks unchanged in appearance,though the flame keeps changing each micro second. Similarly our own vingana keeps changing while projecting our rupa kaya. Hence there is no permanent vingnana or self. Wrong view of this concept I'd sankara ditthi that leads to an ego or a self. Thid process which is explained through a flame explains "Anatta"

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