What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Discussion of Abhidhamma and related Commentaries
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subaru
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What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru »

In the context of analyzing the 5 aggregates (Khandas), the 121 Consciousness (Cittas) and the 52 Mental State (Cetasikas) and the Mental Formation (Sankhara).

1) I know that 'something' among the 52 Cetasikas (the same thing is also present in the Cittas , also in the Sankhara, therefore it's also present in the Khandas) that has wrongly believe that there is a SELF.

So what is the name of that Cetasika?? is it Moha (delusion)? I know that Moha (Avijja ignorance) give rise to Sakayaditthi. In other word Ignorance is responsible for perception of SELF, this is what I can understand. But does it mean that Moha (Avijja) is thinking it is SELF?

or perhaps is the culprit Sanna (Perception) ? ie does it mean ignorance cause perception to believe in self?

or is it the Cetasika called "Ditthi" that is thinking there is a SELF? ie does it mean ignorance cause Ditthi to believe in self?

which mental state(s) is the culprit?

2) I doubt it is "Sati" <---- IF THIS STATEMENT IS TRUE, that means the idea of SELF only occurs when one is engrossed in the Sankhara, am I correct?

Because when Sati is present, one cannot get entangled within Sankhara .. Sati and Sankhara are mutually exclusive, am I correct?

Thank You..
Last edited by subaru on Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

I think it is wrong view (diṭṭhi) that is the culprit rather than delusion (moho) because that is not destroyed until Arahantship is attained.
akusalacetasikaṃ

5. Moho ahirikaṃ anottappaṃ uddhaccaṃ lobho diṭṭhi māno doso issā macchariyaṃ kukkuccaṃ thinaṃ middhaṃ vicikicchā ceti cuddasime cetasikā akusalā nāma.
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subaru
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru »

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I think it is wrong view (diṭṭhi) that is the culprit rather than delusion (moho) because that is not destroyed until Arahantship is attained.
akusalacetasikaṃ

5. Moho ahirikaṃ anottappaṃ uddhaccaṃ lobho diṭṭhi māno doso issā macchariyaṃ kukkuccaṃ thinaṃ middhaṃ vicikicchā ceti cuddasime cetasikā akusalā nāma.

Good Evening Bhante.. That is a very good observation. something I should seriously investigate further
Thank you Bhante
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Goofaholix
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Goofaholix »

The belief is conditioned, something conditioned is going to have multiple contributing factors. I don't really see why there would be only one process buying into this view/belief.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

SarathW
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by SarathW »

As far as I understand, Bhawanga consciousness is the process that believe in self.
Latent tendency (Anussaya) also a result of the belief in self.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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robertk
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by robertk »

SarathW wrote:As far as I understand, Bhawanga consciousness is the process that believe in self.
Latent tendency (Anussaya) also a result of the belief in self.
Bhavanga takes an object which is not known to us- like in deep sleep and has nothing to do with self view .
Dithhi- view- arises during the javana processes.

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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by SarathW »

I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
:thinking:
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subaru
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru »

Why is it whenever I try to investigate Mental States, Dependent Arising, Bhava, Sankhara, I get this strange feeling similar to that of when I was investigating Quantum Physics? It doesn't follow conventional logic, nothing is deterministic.
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote:I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna. These three arise with lobhamūla akusala-cittas. The bhavaṅga, being merely a passive vipāka-citta, is not accompanied by these three and therefore cannot be held responsible for generating the illusion of self.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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subaru
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru »

Dhammanando wrote:
SarathW wrote:I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna. These three arise with lobhamūla akusala-cittas. The bhavaṅga, being merely a passive vipāka-citta, is not accompanied by these three and therefore cannot be held responsible for generating the illusion of self.
Bhante, Am I correct to think that mental formation (Sankhara sometimes known as Volition) is PAST event, but bhavanga is determining the FUTURE?
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by Dhammanando »

subaru wrote:Bhante, Am I correct to think that mental formation (Sankhara sometimes known as Volition) is PAST event, but bhavanga is determining the FUTURE?
My post had to do with the micro-scale of Abhidhammic momentarism, whereas you seem to be alluding to the macro-scale of the three-life exposition of dependent arising. It is in the context of the latter that saṅkhāras are treated as belonging to the past, and in the same context, bhava (not bhavaṅga), is treated as a future event.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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subaru
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru »

Dhammanando wrote:
subaru wrote:Bhante, Am I correct to think that mental formation (Sankhara sometimes known as Volition) is PAST event, but bhavanga is determining the FUTURE?
My post had to do with the micro-scale of Abhidhammic momentarism, whereas you seem to be alluding to the macro-scale of the three-life exposition of dependent arising. It is in the context of the latter that saṅkhāras are treated as belonging to the past, and in the same context, bhava (not bhavaṅga), is treated as a future event.
ok make sense, I am less confused now.. still confused nevertheless
Thank you Bhante
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subaru
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by subaru »

######### Conversation with self aka Sankhara mode #############

Self1: Why do you need to know the name of the mental process? Go practice, no need to think so much, thinking is bad for you
Self2: Perhaps if I know the name, I can identify it when I encounter it?
Self1: What if it don't exist?
Self2: Are you saying Cetasikas dont exist? Sankhara don't exist? Ludicrous, even if it exist momentarily, it exist
Self1: I have no idea.. u know better... ok after you ask the question get out of this Sankhara mode
Self2: ok make sense, let's

######### out of Sankhara mode #######

####### in Sati mode #####
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phil
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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by phil »

Dhammanando wrote:
SarathW wrote:I thought Bhavanga take the object of birth conditions (Bhava or Anussaya) as the object.
The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna.
Dear Bhante

Perhaps off topic but could you explain briefly why tanhaa, ditthi and maana are called papanca, papanca is like proliferation, right? So do those three factors always involve proliferation of thinking, something like that?

Thanks

Phil
Kammalakkhano , bhikkhave, bālo, kammalakkhano pandito, apadānasobhanī paññāti
(The fool is characterized by his/her actions/the wise one is characterized by his/her actions/Wisdom shines forth in behaviour.)
(AN 3.2 Lakkhana Sutta)

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Re: What is the name of that Process that believe it is SELF?

Post by jagodage »

Bhanthe Dhammanando mentioned as



" The mental factors responsible for ‘I-making’ and ‘mine-making’ are the threefold papañca of taṇhā, diṭṭhi and māna. These three arise with lobhamūla akusala-cittas. The bhavaṅga, being merely a passive vipāka-citta, is not accompanied by these three and therefore cannot be held responsible for generating the illusion of self "

Out of three, ditthi and mana are Uddambagiya sanyojana as this is pertain to Asmimana. My question is what does I making in Sakkaya ditthi .Are they same or different?

Jagodage

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