I would like to find a scriptural passage that addresses this question I have about rebirth lineage:
Regarding the dissolution of the self aggregates (death) and the later dependent arising of the aggregates (rebirth), why is this a one-being to one-being mapping?
In other words, why isn't arising dependent on the distributed effects of many dissolutions of many beings (many to many)?
relationships_one_to_one_to_many_to_many.jpg (26.91 KiB) Viewed 4917 times
Culakammavibhanga sutta (MN 135) wrote:beings are owners of kammas, heirs of kammas, they have kammas as their progenitor, kammas as their kin, kammas as their homing-place
then he would illustrate how a person's actions would bring about a certain result in that person's future life
in my opinion if it was otherwise, the ideas of progress in skillful conduct and liberation would be useless, because your actions would be responsible for someone else's achievements
sankhara khandha which could be called a kamma agent is one of the aggregates
Last edited by LXNDR on Tue Jul 14, 2015 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Yes, the Cūḷakammavibhaṅgha Sutta pretty much sums it up.
See the Venerable Ledi Sayādaw's Manual of Path Factors for a more detailed exposition of the mundane right view regarding ownership of one's actions.
Also see the Venerable Mahāsi Sayādaw's explanation of Four Points to Bear in Mind regarding Cause and Effect in his Discourse on Dependent Origination.
The fourth aspect of Dependent Origination is the one- to-one correspondence between cause and effect (evaṃ dhammatā). Every cause leads only to the relevant effect; it has nothing to do with any irrelevant effects. In other words, every cause is the sufficient and necessary condition for the corresponding effect. This leaves no room for chance or moral impotency (akiriya-diṭṭhi). However, as the Visuddhimagga says, for those who misunderstand it, it provides the basis for rigid determinism (niyatavāda). Meditators clearly see the relationship of each effect to its cause, so they have no doubt about their one-to-one correspondence and the truth of moral responsibility.
In other words, every cause is the sufficient and necessary condition for the corresponding effect. However, as the Visuddhimagga says, for those who misunderstand it, it provides the basis for rigid determinism (niyatavāda).
I don't understand:
if some cause is necessary and sufficient condition for its effect, in what way isn't it rigid determinism? Where exactly is there opportunity to bypass strict cause->effect relationship?
It's not deterministic because we always can control our present actions- every time you smoke a cigarette you strengthen the conditions leading to having another one, but it's always possible to quit.
Alex123 wrote:
Where exactly is there opportunity to bypass strict cause->effect relationship?
The opportunity is in the immediate present, that's what vipassana is for- experiencing the necessary and sufficient conditions ripen for a certain reaction, but choosing not to react, cutting off that chain
bypass all cause->effect, and you're unconditioned!
but to bring it back to topic- we could reflect that through good practices like keeping precepts and meditation we can condition ourselves for a favorable rebirth, ultimately it depends on the last mind before we die, so a scattered fearful mind will lead to a lower rebirth while a peaceful, happy mind will lead to a happy rebirth
so again, the only "strict determinism" is that our present action creates our future conditions, what we do with those conditions is always up to us
In other words, every cause is the sufficient and necessary condition for the corresponding effect. However, as the Visuddhimagga says, for those who misunderstand it, it provides the basis for rigid determinism (niyatavāda).
I don't understand:
if some cause is necessary and sufficient condition for its effect, in what way isn't it rigid determinism? Where exactly is there opportunity to bypass strict cause->effect relationship?
With best wishes,
Alex
Depends, as Sujato points out in A swift pair of messangers
"Quite clearly, birth is a necessary condition for aging & death. It is true that birth is also a sufficient condition for death; however it is not a sufficient
condition for aging (because a being who has been newly born might die immediately before aging). So the notion of sufficiency cannot be inherent
in the causal specification; it must be inferred from context."
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
vacvvm wrote:It's not deterministic because we always can control our present actions- every time you smoke a cigarette you strengthen the conditions leading to having another one, but it's always possible to quit.
But is "one will be smoking cigarette on wednesday July 22,2015 at 10:01:49 am" is going to happen no matter what if conditions from distant past are there even today?
Last edited by Alex123 on Sat Jul 18, 2015 1:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
vacvvm wrote:It's not deterministic because we always can control our present actions- every time you smoke a cigarette you strengthen the conditions leading to having another one, but it's always possible to quit.
But is "one will be smoking cigarette on wednesday July 22,2015 at 10:01:49 am" is going to happen no matter what if conditions are there even today?
We will never know. I find taking the practical advice of the late Christopher Hitchens helps when discussing determinism, which is another way of discussing free will.
Of course we have free will, we have no choice
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Jul 19, 2015 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
without the idea of free will active in the present moment and able to transcend conditioning, there could be no vipassana, there could be no path to the unconditioned
