What is an orgasm ?

[Sweet_Nothing]

I am sorry to offend monastics who may read this.

I am not interested in the scientific or biological description of an orgasm. The feeling is most distinguished among the usual range of sensations & feelings, in its intensity as well as its elusiveness.

I want to know if there is any in depth analysis of orgasm from a dhammic perspective. The very prospect would be ironical because the folks who have historically produced such analysis would be from the monastic community, and any explorations would have to be based on distant experiences.

I realise its a pleasant, unwholesome sensation/feeling motivated by greed and results in reinforcement of craving, clinging and attachments which go on multiplying perpetually. However, there seems to be much more to it. The human loka revolves around it. We are deeply addicted to it and never satiated, and often engage in stupid acts/events that end in a negative emotion/kamma.

What are the sense bases involved ? Where is the tension and where is the temporary sense of satisfaction ? Can these things be categorized or laid out, based on the five aggregates, six sense bases and so on ?

By better understanding this phenomenona I seek to liberate myself from its influences.

Is this an unwholesome/prohibited inquiry ?

[robertk]

its just nama and rupa, like everything.

[SarathW]

As far as I know there is no specific mention about orgasm in Abhidhamma.
Ajan Braham once said "Jhana is better than sex" in one of his dhamma talks.
He did not give much details about the reason for his comment.

=======
I think the pleasure of orgasm is the result of wrong concentration.
There are some sutta which says that we can attain Jhana factors with wrong concentration.
Based on that I assume orgasm is the wrong kind of Pithy.
According to sutta there are two kind of Pithy.
Pithy of the flesh and the Pithy not of the flesh.
Oragasm may be the pithy of the flesh.
In Jhana you experience the Pithy not of the flesh. (this is a higher kind of a pleasure last for a much longer than the orgasm)
======
According to Sutta, it is not easy to eliminate sensual pleasures unless you experience at least Jhanic Pithy. (not of the flesh)


=======

Do you find Jhana factors in wrong concentration?



http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=22536&hilit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"

[Modus.Ponens]

Just a correction. I think it's written "piti", and not "pithy". The first means "rapture" or "elation" in pali, while the second is the english word for feeling compassion and sorrow at the same time.

RobertK, after an eventual correction eliminate my post. It has nothing to do with the topic except for a correction that may be valuable to newcomers.

Metta

[MDayan]

Hello Sweet,

I realise its a pleasant, unwholesome sensation/feeling motivated by greed

Doesn't sound right to me. Don't you think it's the efforts we make to get an orgasm that come from greed? The orgasm itself is a passive thing. The mental part of it would be resultant cittas: mostly body-consciousnesses, kayavinnana. These are not wholesome or unwholesome.

and results in reinforcement of craving, clinging and attachments which go on multiplying perpetually.

I think that the reinforcement does not come from the orgasm itself. It is the pre-orgasmic and post-orgasmic cittas that have the power to leave lust-causing accumulations in the mental continuum. Resultant cittas don't have this kind of power.

So the reinforcement of craving comes partly from the greed-consciousnesses that cause us to make an effort to get an orgasm and partly from the way that the piti, sukha and other enjoyable phenomena of the orgasm get processed in the mind-door processes that come after it.

What are the sense bases involved ?

Kayayatana mostly.

Where is the tension and where is the temporary sense of satisfaction ? Can these things be categorized or laid out, based on the five aggregates, six sense bases and so on ?

By better understanding this phenomenona I seek to liberate myself from its influences.

I guess so, but is it really necessary to make it so complicated? I don't. All I do is think of that emperor who said that an orgasm is just a spasmodic excretion of mucus. I just say the words "a spasmodic excretion of mucus" to myself and this liberates me from the defilements and I lose all interest in going out and getting laid.

[SarathW]

I think orgasm is a kind of feeling (Vedana) so it will not be Javana hence not kamma (wholesome or unwholesome)
However the thought process before and after orgasm may be Kamma.

[Sweet_Nothing]

First of all, thanks to all those who participated for your encouraging contributions.

As far as I know there is no specific mention about orgasm in Abhidhamma.
Ajan Braham once said "Jhana is better than sex" in one of his dhamma talks.
He did not give much details about the reason for his comment.

Ajan Brahm tends to stress on Jhanas and the pleasantness dervied therein as a viable alternative to the sensual pleasures that ordinary humans are addicted to.

Having some experience with Jhanas, I contend that they are inherently pleasant and non addictive when they arise effortlessly. There is no clinging, or wanting to prolong the experience.

However, deeper jhanas are very difficult to cultivate as a lay person living the daily grind (even with all 5 precepts). They require very high levels of morality, concentration and an enviornment that is free from distractions or temptations of all kinds. I believe it is possible to cultivate them all, but slowly over a period of many years.

For most of us, long retreats are the optimum way of entering deep meditation and experiencing very deep, full blown jhanas. (Full blown Jhanas: Ajahn Brahm usually refers to intensity where the meditator becomes oblivious to the outside world for a predeteremined period, as per the volition, and only their ear sense door is still kind of working.)

I think the pleasure of orgasm is the result of wrong concentration.
There are some sutta which says that we can attain Jhana factors with wrong concentration.
Based on that I assume orgasm is the wrong kind of Pithy.
According to sutta there are two kind of Pithy.
Pithy of the flesh and the Pithy not of the flesh.
Oragasm may be the pithy of the flesh.
In Jhana you experience the Pithy not of the flesh. (this is a higher kind of a pleasure last for a much longer than the orgasm)
======
According to Sutta, it is not easy to eliminate sensual pleasures unless you experience at least Jhanic Pithy. (not of the flesh)

I agree, it can be said that all pleasures attained from indulgence in the body can be termed as piti of the flesh.

Do you find Jhana factors in wrong concentration?

Jhanas and Joy from wrong concentration have completely opposing volitions. In the orgasm itself there is not much clinging, but the "build up" is completely motivated by greed for "more and more" pleasure. It is almost like a state of intoxication.

Jhanas are "built" on pleasure (or relaxation) derived from letting go, or ceasing to "hold onto" anything, and they develop more when we also let go of them, or simply die out if we get excited about them.




------------------------------------------------

Hello Sweet,

Hi !

I realise its a pleasant, unwholesome sensation/feeling motivated by greed

Doesn't sound right to me. Don't you think it's the efforts we make to get an orgasm that come from greed? The orgasm itself is a passive thing. The mental part of it would be resultant cittas: mostly body-consciousnesses, kayavinnana. These are not wholesome or unwholesome. [/quote]

I think it is difficult to seperate the orgasm from its cause (or effort). Its like seperating a nuclear explosion from the missile that caused it. I am subconsciously addicted to both, the missile and the explosion. It is like a very temporary "release", and maybe this is why there are so many (occult) spiritual practices centered around it.

"The orgasm itself" - This where my curiosity originates. It feels like the origination is very close to the "heart base". There are pleasant, orgasm like experiences that can be encountered while developing concentration - but they do not leave us feeling relaxed or lazy like an orgasm does. They help us to become more aware, clear headed and alert.

I think that the reinforcement does not come from the orgasm itself. It is the pre-orgasmic and post-orgasmic cittas that have the power to leave lust-causing accumulations in the mental continuum. Resultant cittas don't have this kind of power.

So the reinforcement of craving comes partly from the greed-consciousnesses that cause us to make an effort to get an orgasm and partly from the way that the piti, sukha and other enjoyable phenomena of the orgasm get processed in the mind-door processes that come after it.

I agree, but I also feel that these cittas are motivated by a subconscious desire for an orgasm as well. If there was no orgasm, there would be no "building up" or "release" of tension. The entire act would be meaningless (at least for men).

I think that wisdom can be found everywhere if we look with an open mind. The cittas right after an orgasm are completely devoid of lust or sensual desire, and very much contrast the cittas right before the orgasm. I find this "After" state helps us to contemplate the futility of the piti from the flesh, and its a temporary release from the crazy intoxication with sensuality.

What are the sense bases involved ?

Kayayatana mostly.

Where is the tension and where is the temporary sense of satisfaction ? Can these things be categorized or laid out, based on the five aggregates, six sense bases and so on ?

By better understanding this phenomenona I seek to liberate myself from its influences.

I guess so, but is it really necessary to make it so complicated? I don't. All I do is think of that emperor who said that an orgasm is just a spasmodic excretion of mucus. I just say the words "a spasmodic excretion of mucus" to myself and this liberates me from the defilements and I lose all interest in going out and getting laid.

I like the idea. Perhaps I should just keep it simple. You cannot deny that we wouldn't be here without these "spasmodic excretions of mucus", though.

[Abhaya-Achim_Bayer]

Apparently, Sudinna, the monk who committed the transgression on sexual intercourse according to the Vinaya, is said to have impregnated his wife with out feeling any lust.

I mention this in my article on the Sudinna story, but I could not go into further detail.

http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg. ... libacy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



Abhaya

[frank k]

I don't know how you could have a discussion of orgasm with the modern audience, to describe in terms of 6 sense bases and 5 aggregates without reference to some scientific and biological descriptive experiences that they can relate to.

Orgasm is very much tied to health, vitality, endorphins, pleasure chemicals in the brains. See the studies of many ladies getting orgasm (without using lust as the trigger) from riding stationary bicycles or spin classes at their local health club. Or the people who got orgasms from sneezing. People getting runners high. Why do so many people feel very horny after a sustained session (say, more than 20min) of good exercise? Because the vital energy in the body is flowing well.

The pīti and sukha in jhāna can vary a great deal in magnitude, duration, and intensity, but it sure feels like the physical aspect of the pleasure experienced in jhāna is the same as the physical pleasure experienced in the orgasm. Even before getting a solid, stable lasting jhāna experience one can get physical bliss of pīti as strong as an orgasm.

Throughout the whole journey of meditation, I'm talking about long term dedicated practice for years, decades, etc, the body goes through a sublimation of energy. You'll feel your body feel getting lighter, more sensitive, connected, your brain getting sharper and faster, your reflexes getting faster. This softening, sublimation of coarser energy into more refined energy in meditation, you'll most likely run into some interesting experiences with pīti. Ajahn Brahm is not exaggerating in the least when he says a deep jhāna experience is better than sex. The physical orgasmic pleasure of wordly sexual activity tends to be mostly localized, last a few seconds. In deep meditation, it can be an intense full body orgasm that lasts a long time. Or you can sometimes feel localized orgasmic pleasure that moves along energy meridians of your body. There's a whole spectrum of range of experiences, so it actually makes more sense that monastics are much more qualified to know and describe the nature of orgasm. Remember many monastics had a worldly life before becoming monastics, so they can definitely speak of these experiences authoritatively.

You all can experience this yourself. Here's the secret. Brahmacariya. Pure celibacy, mind and body, not just the body. Every time you have even one second of intense sensual lust in the mind, you are losing vital energy. If you are sensitive, if your practice of kāya anupasana, contemplation of body, or step 3 of anapanasati of sabba kāya patisaṃvedi, experiencing the bodily sensations pervasively from head to toe in every part of your body, you'll notice even a split second of lustful thinking and your reproductive organs start buzzing, heating up, churning up lubrication, getting ready for reproduction.

If you can do this (good quality of brahamacariya) even just for 100 days, you'll notice a huge difference from non-celibate lifestyle.
People also drain vital energy from talking too much, thinking too much, eating too much, and eating garbage. Stop doing these things, get rid of your t.v., stop surfing the internet, don't look at the advertisements in the media. better not to join a health club where the attitudes, group energy of narcissistic barely clothed people can be mentally provocative of lust. Surround yourself every day with great dhamma friends. If none easily available, read the suttas, then you have the finest dhamma friends of all! The Buddha and arahants. Then dhamma practice becomes very easy, meditation becomes much easier. Realistically, for most worldlings it's very difficult to adjust our lifestyle to be in accordance the dhamma while having to make a living and constantly be exposed to all the wrong views and defiled lifestyles of worldlings. Better to ordain, or go on long retreats to give yourself a protected environment to develop good life habits.

The good life is waiting for you, don't waste time.
metta,
frank

I am sorry to offend monastics who may read this.

I am not interested in the scientific or biological description of an orgasm. The feeling is most distinguished among the usual range of sensations & feelings, in its intensity as well as its elusiveness.

I want to know if there is any in depth analysis of orgasm from a dhammic perspective. The very prospect would be ironical because the folks who have historically produced such analysis would be from the monastic community, and any explorations would have to be based on distant experiences.

I realise its a pleasant, unwholesome sensation/feeling motivated by greed and results in reinforcement of craving, clinging and attachments which go on multiplying perpetually. However, there seems to be much more to it. The human loka revolves around it. We are deeply addicted to it and never satiated, and often engage in stupid acts/events that end in a negative emotion/kamma.

What are the sense bases involved ? Where is the tension and where is the temporary sense of satisfaction ? Can these things be categorized or laid out, based on the five aggregates, six sense bases and so on ?

By better understanding this phenomenona I seek to liberate myself from its influences.

Is this an unwholesome/prohibited inquiry ?

[Sweet_Nothing]

I don't know how you could have a discussion of orgasm with the modern audience, to describe in terms of 6 sense bases and 5 aggregates without reference to some scientific and biological descriptive experiences that they can relate to.

Orgasm is very much tied to health, vitality, endorphins, pleasure chemicals in the brains. See the studies of many ladies getting orgasm (without using lust as the trigger) from riding stationary bicycles or spin classes at their local health club. Or the people who got orgasms from sneezing. People getting runners high. Why do so many people feel very horny after a sustained session (say, more than 20min) of good exercise? Because the vital energy in the body is flowing well.

The pīti and sukha in jhāna can vary a great deal in magnitude, duration, and intensity, but it sure feels like the physical aspect of the pleasure experienced in jhāna is the same as the physical pleasure experienced in the orgasm. Even before getting a solid, stable lasting jhāna experience one can get physical bliss of pīti as strong as an orgasm.

Throughout the whole journey of meditation, I'm talking about long term dedicated practice for years, decades, etc, the body goes through a sublimation of energy. You'll feel your body feel getting lighter, more sensitive, connected, your brain getting sharper and faster, your reflexes getting faster. This softening, sublimation of coarser energy into more refined energy in meditation, you'll most likely run into some interesting experiences with pīti. Ajahn Brahm is not exaggerating in the least when he says a deep jhāna experience is better than sex. The physical orgasmic pleasure of wordly sexual activity tends to be mostly localized, last a few seconds. In deep meditation, it can be an intense full body orgasm that lasts a long time. Or you can sometimes feel localized orgasmic pleasure that moves along energy meridians of your body. There's a whole spectrum of range of experiences, so it actually makes more sense that monastics are much more qualified to know and describe the nature of orgasm. Remember many monastics had a worldly life before becoming monastics, so they can definitely speak of these experiences authoritatively.

You all can experience this yourself. Here's the secret. Brahmacariya. Pure celibacy, mind and body, not just the body. Every time you have even one second of intense sensual lust in the mind, you are losing vital energy. If you are sensitive, if your practice of kāya anupasana, contemplation of body, or step 3 of anapanasati of sabba kāya patisaṃvedi, experiencing the bodily sensations pervasively from head to toe in every part of your body, you'll notice even a split second of lustful thinking and your reproductive organs start buzzing, heating up, churning up lubrication, getting ready for reproduction.

If you can do this (good quality of brahamacariya) even just for 100 days, you'll notice a huge difference from non-celibate lifestyle.
People also drain vital energy from talking too much, thinking too much, eating too much, and eating garbage. Stop doing these things, get rid of your t.v., stop surfing the internet, don't look at the advertisements in the media. better not to join a health club where the attitudes, group energy of narcissistic barely clothed people can be mentally provocative of lust. Surround yourself every day with great dhamma friends. If none easily available, read the suttas, then you have the finest dhamma friends of all! The Buddha and arahants. Then dhamma practice becomes very easy, meditation becomes much easier. Realistically, for most worldlings it's very difficult to adjust our lifestyle to be in accordance the dhamma while having to make a living and constantly be exposed to all the wrong views and defiled lifestyles of worldlings. Better to ordain, or go on long retreats to give yourself a protected environment to develop good life habits.

The good life is waiting for you, don't waste time.
metta,
frank

Hello Frank.

I am pleased to reread your post.

I first read it today morning, outside the Buddha Smriti Park in Patna just before I got to meditate with the Buddha's relics.

I have not been checking this forum much, so sorry for the late response. Earlier, I was a retreat in Nalanda before spending some time at Bodh Gaya. Could resist the cyber urge for only so long.

Now I am back home. I agree with everything you say. You seem like someone who knows what they are saying. Coming across such people is always motivating and offsets reading all the unproductive posts.

In fact, you have covered everything I have done since I began on the path. Some things I did voluntarily, and some things a bit forcibly by change in conditions.

At the retreat, some breaths were full blown orgasmic. The flow was like a flat paint brush stroke or a waterfall - barely moving but rich. I only focused on the breathing when Kaya Anupasana got too unbearable (in adhistana sittings), and for me deeper purification of the mind has been more rewarding than any sort of Jhanic bliss achieved as a byproduct.

I feel that the mind enters natural celibacy as insight deepens, and there are deeper realizations about the futility of bodily pleasures. I saw that - even the most beautiful bodies only produce one thing - excrement ! For as long as they are alive, that's all they do.. and sex, lets not go there. I cannot say if this clarity will remain - but I will try.

Over the years, this minds addiction to sensuality has reduced gradually and steadily. It was difficult when forced but there were also unpleasant after effects when completely unrestrained. Now, the old habit patterns are reversing more organically.

Also, seeing the plethora of monks at Bodh Gaya changed my perception on the holy life. I expected Theravedan monks to be similar to what we read in the Suttas - or something like how serious lay people behave while on retreats. I guess only a small number of monks are really serious about full Enlightenment, and most are satisfied with having entered the holy life.

Long retreats are good, but they are fully effective only when the being has the requisite preparations : Fulfillment of Kammic duties, maturity in the 10 Paramis, steady practice, etc.

If you dont mind, message me your email.

Metta

Akash