What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

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mikenz66
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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Nov 05, 2015 5:25 am


SarathW
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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Thu Nov 05, 2015 6:54 am

Thanks Mike
I tend to agree with Ven. Sujato than the Ven. Thanissaro.
I think radiant consciousness is mainly a result of developed mind by Samatha meditation.
The Nibbana is the result of discernment development by Vipassana Meditattion.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by cobwith » Thu Nov 05, 2015 8:54 pm

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;"
Pure is water and it is defiled by waste.
Pure is water and it is cleansed from waste.
Water must be treated to be freed from waste.

Consciousness must be cleansed from what is willed, what is arranged, and what is obsessed over (SN 12.38) to recover its original radiance. And that is through the development of the mind. Not through further fabrications (sakhara), but through fabrications and intentions that help the subduing of the effluents.
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are, without remnant,
brought to an end.
Of (the activity of) consciousness,
each is here brought to an end.
— DN 11
Mind is a wider subject. But luminosity seems to apply to it, at consciousness (viññaya) level and determinant/"fabrication" (sakhara) level. In other words, it seems that clean consciousness, and clean perception, feeling and thought, cleansed from their effluents, make up a luminous (developed) mind. "Making up" in the sense that it reaches back its original state.
I would guess that the mind is going through Akuppa-cetovimutti (unshakable/unprovokable deliverance of mind;) the ultimate awareness (mind)-release; and that this release is luminous.
Last edited by cobwith on Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:40 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Aloka
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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Aloka » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:42 am

In "The Island" by Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro, there's a section on "Radiance" in chapter 12 "Knowing Emptiness and the Radiant Mind."

http://cdn.amaravati.org/wp-content/upl ... e_2015.pdf


:anjali:

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by cobwith » Sun Nov 08, 2015 1:55 pm

Loved that sutta (thanks Aloka):
Buddha wrote: “Bhikkhus, this mind is radiant, but it doesn’t show its radiance because passing defilements come and obscure it.
(Pabhassaramidam bhikkhave cittam, tañca kho agantukehi upakkilesehi upakkilittham).
The unwise, ordinary person does not understand this as it is, therefore there is no mind development in the unwise, ordinary person.
“Bhikkhus, this mind is radiant, it shows its radiance when it is unobscured by passing defilements. The wise, noble disciple understands this as it is, therefore there is mind development in the wise, noble disciple.”
~ A 1.61 & .62
The radiance of wisdom (paññapabha).
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khandhāyatanadhātuyo
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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:43 pm

So then, what sort of thought are arising in the radiant consciousness.
Why they do not cloud the radiance of the consciousness?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by cobwith » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:05 pm

SarathW wrote:So then, what sort of thought are arising in the radiant consciousness.
Why they do not cloud the radiance of the consciousness?
I suppose that, at that level of Akuppa-cetovimutti (please, see the two links in my previous post,) consciousness is unprovoked with the thoughts coming from the nama/rupa khanda. Namely, the thoughts made (mostly) of intentions (cetana,) and mental attentions (manasikāra).

The only "thoughts" that are still arising (and still defiling somewhat) the radiance of consciousness is the Thinking/pondering (verbal determination - Vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro) coming from Saṅkhārā (see Paticcasamuppada). It is still defiling the radiance of consciousness, because there is still the possibility of saṃsāra. And this possibility of verbal expression, terminology and designation, is inherent to the fact of a still existing Vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.

Bhudda wrote: Here consciousness is non-manifestive (has no feature) (abhisaṅkhata viññāṇa) .
...
"Name as well as form are without remnant (are held in check with no trace left)" (ettha nāmañca rūpañca asesaṁ uparujjhati).
DN11
Abhisaṅkhata viññāṇa has been wiped off. Only what comes from Saṅkhārā khanda is left (anidassana viññāṇa).
Metta.
Last edited by cobwith on Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by phil » Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:47 am

Bhavanga, right? That's what the classical texts say and this section is ( if I understood correctly ) for what Abhidhamma and the other classical texts say.

Is there an explanation in the ancient texts other than bhavanga? I'd be happy to drop the bhavanga explanation since it isn't pleasing to the cittas that would like to have something more attainable to go for. But the texts say luminous mind means bhavanga, right?
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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Nov 15, 2015 3:57 am

phil wrote:But the texts say luminous mind means bhavanga, right?
Yes, that is indeed what the commentaries define it as.

Which means that several of the posts in this thread are not at all in line with the rules for the Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada forums. A quick reminder for anyone posting here:

  • The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature.

    Posts should also include support from a reference, a citation (Tipitaka, commentarial, or from a later work from an author representative of the Classical point-of-view).

    Posts that contain personal opinions and conjecture, points of view arrived at from meditative experiences, conversations with devas, blind faith in the supreme veracity of one's own teacher's point of view etc. are all regarded as off-topic, and as such, will be subject to moderator review and/or removal.

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by justindesilva » Fri Jul 29, 2016 12:11 pm

Though it is difficult to quote from scripts I understand that vingana without defilements makes the path for a radiant consciousness. With Nibbana nobody speaks of a radiant consciousness.

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by fivebells » Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:14 pm

SarathW wrote:Can someone explain the meaning of the following:

“Radiant is this consciousness,” (pabhassaram idam cittam) says the Buddha in
the Anguttara Nikāya vol. 1, p. 10. According to the commentator the Buddha
was thus referring to the rebirth-consciousness
You may find Thanissaro's commentary on this helpful. (If this strays outside the rules for this forum, I apologize.)
The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?

<snip>

A more reasonable approach to understanding the statement can be derived from taking it in context: the luminous mind is the mind that the meditator is trying to develop. To perceive its luminosity means understanding that defilements such as greed, aversion, or delusion are not intrinsic to its nature, are not a necessary part of awareness. Without this understanding, it would be impossible to practice. With this understanding, however, one can make an effort to cut away existing defilements, leaving the mind in the stage that MN 24 calls "purity in terms of mind." This would correspond to the luminous level of concentration described in the standard simile for the fourth jhana: "And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. Just as if a man were sitting covered from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness." From this state it is possible to develop the discernment that not only cuts away existing defilements but also uproots any potential for them to ever arise again.
SarathW wrote: I found further information please refer to page 329 of the link below. It does not make any sense to me:

http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... gsurw6.pdf
This link was mangled somehow to an extant that I was unable to reconstruct it.

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by davidbrainerd » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:43 pm

Translating cittam as consciousness rather than mind is going to create confusion.

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Mon Apr 10, 2017 9:00 am

In the following video (Sinhalese Language) Ven. Abhya describes radiant consciousness as Arahattaphala Samadhi.
I think it is incorrect.

https://youtu.be/Hwk-aKhm0f4?t=201


This is very clear from Ven. Sujato's article.

In either case, there is no suggestion here that the “radiant mind” be connected with Nibbana. Quite the opposite: the whole point of the sutta is that it can be defiled, so it cannot be Nibbana.

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2014/10/29 ... iant-mind/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by aflatun » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:36 am

nyanasuci wrote:I think that you misunderstood the Sutta you are quoting:
SarathW wrote:'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as this toward the dimension of the infinitude of space and to develop the mind along those lines, that would be fabricated.
It is the directing of the equanimity, the establishing of it, pure and bright, that it is 'fabricated', not the dimension of the infinite space.
Bhante

Could you unpack this a little further? Are you saying the dimension of infinite space is not fabricated? Or something else?

:anjali:
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Tue Apr 11, 2017 4:49 am

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Lal » Thu Apr 13, 2017 4:55 pm

SarathW said,
Hi Lal
Could you give your opinion on the Pabhassara Citta in the following link? Please do not answer here.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15567&start=20#p422008
I have discussed pabhassara citta, radiant mind, and bhavanga citta in a new post at my site:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

I would be happy to answer any questions.

With metta, Lal

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by aflatun » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:30 pm

Hah, I didn't notice how old the thread was, thank you Sarath!
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Thu Apr 13, 2017 9:35 pm

Lal wrote:SarathW said,
Hi Lal
Could you give your opinion on the Pabhassara Citta in the following link? Please do not answer here.

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15567&start=20#p422008
I have discussed pabhassara citta, radiant mind, and bhavanga citta in a new post at my site:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

I would be happy to answer any questions.

With metta, Lal
Thank you, Lal.
The all good except no support from Sutta. We do not need your personal opinion.

Can you give me reference to :'
The opposite of “pabha sara” is “pabha assara“, where “assara” means “not take part in”. It rhymes as “pabhassara“.
At least give me the reference from Pali Text society.

You said Pabhaassara is a Arahant Citta which I do not agree with. I think you experience these when you are in Jhana. Perhaps the degree may difer. again I need some reference.

Are these Ven. Abhaya's view? Is he agree with your views?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by Lal » Fri Apr 14, 2017 3:35 pm

SarathW said
..all good except no support from Sutta. We do not need your personal opinion.
If you have figured it all out, then why have this discussion? I actually only quoted from the Tipitaka:
https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/pabha ... -bhavanga/

Also, see #2 below. The key here is which set of baseline interpretation of key Pali words is correct.

1.SarathW said,
“The opposite of “pabha sara” is “pabha assara“, where “assara” means “not take part in”. It rhymes as “pabhassara“.
At least give me the reference from Pali Text society.
-Why do you think the interpretations in the Pali Text Society provide the ultimate truth? I just looked up the “Pali-English Dictionary” by T. W. Rhys Davis, and there many words without clear explanations. It does not have the word “assara”. It says “pabha” is “light, radiance, shine”, which is clearly wrong. As I explained in my post, "pabha" means "repeated bhava". That is consistent in both the verse, "Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ anantaṃ sabbato pabhaṃ.." and in the word pabhassara as I pointed out in my post.

- sara is "sari sareema" or "asuru kireema" in Sinhala. Most Pali words have similar Sinhala words.

-Have you thought about the fact that those interpretations of Pali words were made by Europeans who had no background in Buddhism (or Pali or Sinhala), let alone any magga phala? (I am not bringing up race or anything else here. In fact, I am thankful to those Europeans who made the whole world aware of the value of Buddha Dhamma, even though they understood only a fraction). Actually, this point is probably easier to grasp for Europeans and people of other backgrounds who know how difficult it is to grasp the meanings of some Pali words. I am impressed by Rhys Davis and other others who were able to grasp as much as they did in the 1800's. But they devoted their whole adult lives to it. Learning Buddha Dhamma is much more difficult than learning a new language. Again, it helps to understand the historical background:
https://puredhamma.net/historical-backg ... -dhamma-2/

-Buddha Dhamma is not philosophy. The only people who are authorities are who have attained magga phala by practicing it, Ariyas like Waharaka Thero. There are many people with magga phala today, thanks to Waharaka Thero. When you go to Sri Lanka, meet Abhaya Thero and find out how many have attained magga phala in recent years; you can also talk to people who have attained magga phala and Ariya jhana.

2.I have actually quoted from the original suttas, and only from the commentaries that are in the Tipitaka. As I explained, those commentaries outside of the Tipitaka have the opinions of the commentators who came mostly after 400 CE, 900 years after the Buddha when Buddhism was in decline; see the “Historical Background” at the Pure Dhamma site.

-That is why most of the postings at this forum have contradictory information; they quote from either such commentators, or the so-called “scholars” of the present day who rely on such material with errors.

-If anyone can point out that what I have explained is not correct using material only from the Tipitaka, then I can respond.

3.Just because one can quote from another, does not mean it is the correct interpretation (obviously, they don’t believe that either and that is why they are looking for more explanations!). Please keep an open mind and make sure different aspects of what you believe are inter-consistent. If there are contradictions, then one or more of those interpretations must be incorrect. The fact that most of you are quoting others and going around in circles means that you have many unresolved issues.

- Instead of quoting others, state the key idea that you get from that source in your own words, and quote from only the Tipitaka. When you do that you will need to dig deeper and thus realize any problems with that interpretation.

4.If one understands a concept, one should be able to express it clearly, just by quoting from the Tipitaka, not from other sources. Then, if you are interpreting the Tipitaka correctly, all those different explanations (meanings of anicca and anatta, pabhassara citta, bhavanga, etc ) will be inter-consistent. The key is that all those explanations must be inter-consistent.

- For example, I have clearly explained why a bhavanga citta is not a pabhassara citta. If that is not correct, show evidence form the Tipitaka that they are the same. I have explained why only an Arahant phala citta is a pabhassara citta. If it is incorrect, show evidence from the Tipitaka.

5.In my scientist life, I faced a similar problem. Many scientists cannot explain a given physics concept without using many mathematical equations. While it is nice to confirm a theory with mathematical proof, a mathematical proof by itself is not enough. One should be able to explain it in one’s own words; of course one should have the necessary background on the understanding of key basic concepts first. Here it is the same. Actually Buddha Dhamma is much deeper than physics. People try to tackle advanced concepts without understanding that getting rid of dasa akuslala is the key and that is related to advanced concepts like anicca and anatta.

6.Even though I am satisfied with my explanations on these Dhamma concepts (and know that they are inter-consistent), I cannot say that what I stated is the absolute truth. It is up to those who read and contemplate on that material to decide. Even the Buddha said not to believe what he stated without analyzing. This discussion should be about honestly trying to find the true Dhamma, because that is where the only refuge is, in this danger-filled rebirth process.

7.So, I will respond if there is a comment worthwhile responding to.

With Metta, Lal
Last edited by Lal on Fri Apr 14, 2017 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What does it mean by radiant consciousness?

Post by SarathW » Fri Apr 14, 2017 8:59 pm

Are these Ven. Abhaya's view? Is he agree with your views?
Could you respond to this question?
Thanks.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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