what is delusion ?

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confusedlayman
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what is delusion ?

Post by confusedlayman »

Rebirth-linking cittas
are further classified as three-rooted if the three wholesome
mental factors of alobha [non-attachment], adosa [non-hatred]
and amoha [non-delusion] are present; two-rooted if only alobha
and adosa are present, and rootless if none of them is present.
Only a being born with a three-rooted rebirth-linking citta can
attain jhàna [meditative absorption], magga [path] and phala
[fruition].

-------
it says non delusion is needed for jhana, magga and phala.. so only persons who in past did parami, associated with buddhism but reached state just before stream entry but failed to attain stream entry can only attain steam entry or jhana plus path together in present rebirth?

is non delusion needed for attaining jhana itself? as deluded astectics also attain jhana

so what is delusion means?
dont think
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Coëmgenu
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Re: what is delusion ?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I'm not an Abhidhamma expert at all by any means, so if this is completely wrong or off-topic moderation can remove this.

Just looking at the text you quoted, it looks like it is talking about the process of the "rebirth-linking cittas" of beings. If someone is born via the three-rooted citta route with the root of non-delusion, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are unable to produce delusion later in life. One would think. These "wholesome roots" are described as allowing one to "attain jhàna [meditative absorption], magga [path] and phala [fruition]," but not determining that one will be born without delusion and maintain a state of no-delusion until jhana, magga, and phala.
If you see a river, pray that beings gain entrance into the stream and into the ocean of wisdom. If you see a reservoir, pray that beings swiftly taste the one taste of the Dharma. If you see a pond, pray that beings become great in locution and skillful in preaching. If you see a well, pray that beings draw deep from the well of reason to disclose all dharmas. If you see a spring, pray that beings have inexhaustible roots of virtue. If you see a bridge, pray that beings carry all across to safety, as via a bridge. If you see a waterfall, pray that all beings cleanse the stains of delusion.
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confusedlayman
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Re: what is delusion ?

Post by confusedlayman »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:55 pm I'm not an Abhidhamma expert at all by any means, so if this is completely wrong or off-topic moderation can remove this.

Just looking at the text you quoted, it looks like it is talking about the process of the "rebirth-linking cittas" of beings. If someone is born via the three-rooted citta route with the root of non-delusion, it doesn't necessarily follow that they are unable to produce delusion later in life. One would think. These "wholesome roots" are described as allowing one to "attain jhàna [meditative absorption], magga [path] and phala [fruition]," but not determining that one will be born without delusion and maintain a state of no-delusion until jhana, magga, and phala.
so it is just the ability ?
dont think
coconut
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Re: what is delusion ?

Post by coconut »

Delusion is Identity View and Conceit.
71. "When a noble disciple has thus understood the taints, the origin of the taints, the cessation of the taints, and the way leading to the cessation of the taints, he entirely abandons the underlying tendency to lust, he abolishes the underlying tendency to aversion, he extirpates the underlying tendency to the view and conceit 'I am,' and by abandoning ignorance and arousing true knowledge he here and now makes an end of suffering. In that way too a noble disciple is one of right view, whose view is straight, who has perfect confidence in the Dhamma and has arrived at this true Dhamma."
- Samma Ditthi sutta

You can be deluded while having jhanas, see MN 1 which shows that a deluded person identifies with their current state of existence.
SarathW
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Re: what is delusion ?

Post by SarathW »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:54 am Rebirth-linking cittas
are further classified as three-rooted if the three wholesome
mental factors of alobha [non-attachment], adosa [non-hatred]
and amoha [non-delusion] are present; two-rooted if only alobha
and adosa are present, and rootless if none of them is present.
Only a being born with a three-rooted rebirth-linking citta can
attain jhàna [meditative absorption], magga [path] and phala
[fruition].

-------
it says non delusion is needed for jhana, magga and phala.. so only persons who in past did parami, associated with buddhism but reached state just before stream entry but failed to attain stream entry can only attain steam entry or jhana plus path together in present rebirth?

is non delusion needed for attaining jhana itself? as deluded astectics also attain jhana

so what is delusion means?
Could you give the link to above quote please.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Alino
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Re: what is delusion ?

Post by Alino »

Non delusion mean wisdom, wisdom mean seeing anicca, dukkha anatta of phenomenas, wisdom arise naturally with concentration, wisdom is necessary for Fruit.
_/\_
SteRo
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Re: what is delusion ?

Post by SteRo »

confusedlayman wrote: Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:54 am Rebirth-linking cittas
are further classified as three-rooted if the three wholesome
mental factors of alobha [non-attachment], adosa [non-hatred]
and amoha [non-delusion] are present; two-rooted if only alobha
and adosa are present, and rootless if none of them is present.
Only a being born with a three-rooted rebirth-linking citta can
attain jhàna [meditative absorption], magga [path] and phala
[fruition].

-------
it says non delusion is needed for jhana, magga and phala.. so only persons who in past did parami, associated with buddhism but reached state just before stream entry but failed to attain stream entry can only attain steam entry or jhana plus path together in present rebirth?

is non delusion needed for attaining jhana itself? as deluded astectics also attain jhana

so what is delusion means?
Abhidhammattha Sangaha wrote:§6. Consciousness Rooted in Delusion (mohamūlacittāni) — 2
11. Upekkhāsahagataṁ vicikicchāsampayuttam ekaṁ.
12. Upekkhāsahagataṁ uddhaccasampayuttam ekan ti.
Imāni dve momūhacittāni nāma.

...

11. One consciousness, accompanied by equanimity, associated with doubt.
12. One consciousness, accompanied by equanimity, associated with restlessness.
These two types of consciousness involve sheer delusion
So since delusion is associated with doubt/uncertainty or restlessness/agitation and both, doubt/uncertainty and restlessness/agitation are known as nivaranas/hindrances, it seems that "non delusion is needed for jhana".
Exhaling अ and inhaling धीः amounts to བྷྲཱུཾ་བི་ཤྭ་བི་ཤུད་དྷེ
ToVincent
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Re: what is delusion ?

Post by ToVincent »

Moha in the pre-Buddhist literature:

::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
In the Athava Veda:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Agni *bewilders* the citta(s) of his opponents:
"This Agni has *bewildered* all the cittas that were in your hearts".
"Ayam agnir amūmuhad yāni cittāni vo hṛdi".
AVŚ 3.2.2

The sound of the drum at war, *bewilders* the cittas of the opponents (AVŚ 5.21.4)

Vanish, their hopes and plans of theirs, be they *be confounded*, all their cittas!
Whatever wish is in their heart, do thou expel it utterly.
vy ākūtaya eṣām itātho cittāni muhyata
atho yad adyaiṣāṃ hṛdi tad eṣāṃ pari nir jahi
(AVŚ 3.2.4c)

The pains that through the bowels creep, *perturbing* (disturbing) the inward parts,
yā gudā anusarpanty āntrāṇi mohayanti ca |
AVŚ_9,8.17a


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
In the Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Not doing the sacrifice correctly - the sacrifice is filled with *bewilderment*, and they don't know the sacrifice - (SBr. 3.2.3.1)

Some handling brings witchcraft to naught - (SBr. 3.5.4.14)

Badly done breathing, *disorders* the sacrificer's out-breathing and in-breathing - (SBr. 4.1.2.19)

Whatever (sacrificial) work the gods performed, that *disturbs* both the Asura-Rakshas - (SBr. 4.2.1.5)

A bad handling can *perturb* the vital airs [prāṇā] - (SBr. 4.2.4.13) (SBr. 4.5.9.3/5/7/9/10/12)

Prajapati, with some sacrificial handling, puts down and *confounds* Death; and in like manner does the Sacrificer now put down and confound all evils - (SBr. 8.4.4.2)

Confounding day and night with one another, and avoiding *confusion* between day and night - (SBr. 13.2.1.7)


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In the Rig Veda:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

That which through sleep or darkness has deceived you and lies down by you,
And will destroy your progeny,--even this will we exterminate.
yas tvā svapnena tamasā mohayitvā nipadyate
prajāṁ yas te jighāṁsati tam ito nāśayāmasi
RV. 10.162.06


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
In the Taittirīya Saṃhitā:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Prajapati might desire to cause the people to fall in confusion.
TS. 6.6.5.4


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
In the Taittirīya Brāhmaṇa:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The sacrificer invokes the god, so as not to be sweept away (overwhelm emotionally).
TB. 3.8.16


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In the Kauṣītaki Upaniṣad:
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

when a weak person is about to die, comes to such a weakness that he falls into *stupor*...
KaushUp 3.3


________

Generally, moha is a confusion (as lobha and dosa), that hinders the citta to see clearly.
See:
SN 1.46
SN 56.41
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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