Kathavatthu

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Wizard in the Forest
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Kathavatthu

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Tue Dec 14, 2010 2:57 am

What were some important points that were refuted (out of the 252 points of contention) in the Kathavatthu?

I don't see many places where I can get a translation of the Kathavatthu and the only one I found online was in Pali, and I'm not good enough with the language to feel confident to read it all. What were some points brought up?
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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Annapurna
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Annapurna » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:25 am

Here is the Kathavatthu suttha:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But I don't understand why you want to refute points in that suttha? Don't you agree with it?

A

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cooran
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran » Tue Dec 14, 2010 7:32 am

Hello Annapurna,

This topic is in the Abhidhamma sub-forum. :smile:

Kathāvatthu (Pāli) (abbrev. Kv, Kvu), translated as "Points of Controversy", is a Buddhist scripture, one of the seven books in the Theravada Abhidhamma Pitaka. The text contrasts the orthodox Theravada position on a range of issues to the heterodox views of various interlocutors; the latter are not identified in the primary source text, but were speculatively identified with specific schools of thought in the (historically subsequent) commentaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathavatthu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:24 pm

There's no illustration of the points in the wiki. That's why I asked about it.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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cooran
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran » Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:13 pm

Hello Wizard,

There isn’t much translated and online. Pariyatti (if in North America) or the Pali Text Society Websites may be helpful – but possibly expensive unless vitally interested.

Your best bet is to join Dhammastudygroup http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; if you aren’t already a member, and go to their Files section. Click on ‘’ Useful_Posts_2010-12.htm - Useful posts (with links) updated December 2010’’ and read any threads listed under ''K'' on Katavatthu.
Many members of Dhammastudygroup are well-versed in the intricacies of the the Abhidhamma and commentaries, and I find them a very valuable resource.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Kare
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Kare » Tue Dec 14, 2010 10:33 pm

The best and most detailed information about Kathavatthu is probably found in Nyanatiloka: "Guide to the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=2539" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mettāya,
Kåre

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cooran
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran » Tue Dec 14, 2010 11:08 pm

Hello Kare,

Thanks for your recommendation. I've ordered it as a Christmas Present for myself. :smile:

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Kare
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Kare » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:26 am

cooran wrote:Hello Kare,

Thanks for your recommendation. I've ordered it as a Christmas Present for myself. :smile:

with metta
Chris
You deserve it - not at least for all those jokes that have kept me chuckling ... :rofl:

Merry Christmas - or in Norwegian: God Jul! ("Good Yule")
Mettāya,
Kåre

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:38 am

Those jokes are adorable by the way. I'm not good at jokes, which is why I posted the link for nerd jokes
:rofl:

But I will take a look at this commentary on the Abhidhamma.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by pt1 » Fri Dec 17, 2010 8:44 am

Hi, kathavatthu and its commentary were translated and published by PTS as "Points of controversy" and "The debates commentary" :
http://www.palitext.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From their Translations page:
http://www.palitext.com/palitext/tran.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Points of Controversy, tr. S.Z. Aung and Mrs C.A.F. Rhys Davids, 1915, 1993 ISBN 002 9 £23.65
...
The Debates Commentary, tr. B.C. Law, 1940, 1989 ISBN 019 3 £20.60
Not sure if this is pricey, but once you buy their books, you generally end up using them for decades. And they are always a great gift/donation. Also, if you become a member of PTS, I think you get from them a free book of your choosing once a year.

Also, if you have a big library close by (and in particular a university library with a department for Asian studies or something like that) they might have a lot of PTS books that you can borrow. Mine for example has pretty much the entire canon and many of the commentary translations by PTS.

NOt sure if there's another English translations of kathavatthu, though I think Ven.Pannasikhara mentioned that there's a working translation by Conze, which is easier to follow than the PTS translation (which can be difficult since it's about a hundred years old).

Regarding dsg, this is the direct link to the current Useful posts file:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... _Posts.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As Chris mentioned, you'd need to become a member of the group to access it.

Best wishes
Last edited by pt1 on Thu Dec 23, 2010 8:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cooran
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by cooran » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:55 am

Kare wrote:The best and most detailed information about Kathavatthu is probably found in Nyanatiloka: "Guide to the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=2539" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Great good luck!! I ordered the Guide to the Abhidhamma Pitaka over the Net on the 15th December (Oz time). It was coming from Ilford in Essex, U.K. ... so given the inclement British weather with flights cancelled due to heavy snowfalls, I expected it to take quite a few weeks. But, it arrived in my letter box in Brisbane Australia today 21/12 2010. 6 days!!

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

auto
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by auto » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:07 pm

icyteru wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:36 am
you can read it in my blog. :anjali:
your link is hijacked its full of ads having asian female underwear. It can happen if you sign in to somewhere, then the personal information can be sold and the next owner have some other things in mind like hosting a mailorder bride service.

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budo
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by budo » Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:34 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:07 pm
icyteru wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:36 am
you can read it in my blog. :anjali:
your link is hijacked its full of ads having asian female underwear. It can happen if you sign in to somewhere, then the personal information can be sold and the next owner have some other things in mind like hosting a mailorder bride service.
It's not a good idea to bump a 7 year old thread, for reasons like this.

Maybe the mods should look into archiving old threads, so that members do not bump them, and instead can create new threads. A script could lock any thread where the last reply is X amount of years old.

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dylanj
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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by dylanj » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:56 am

it's on suttacentral but my burmse friend said the translation differs significantly from theirs
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Kathavatthu

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:14 pm

auto wrote:
Tue Nov 06, 2018 3:07 pm
icyteru wrote:
Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:36 am
you can read it in my blog. :anjali:
your link is hijacked its full of ads having asian female underwear. It can happen if you sign in to somewhere, then the personal information can be sold and the next owner have some other things in mind like hosting a mailorder bride service.
If such is the case it is prudent that the moderators remove this old link, I will notify them.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः

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