The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

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aflatun
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by aflatun » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:06 pm

"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

theY
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 am

Reading is very bad method of study. I often try to tell that how much important of reciting and memorizing tipitaka-pāli, but no one focus on it. So, useless question still going on from reading.

my english is terrible, so I will not quote the translation, because it is very hard for me to find the translated text ,or translate it to english. You must try to translate these pāli by yourselves.

I think according to sutta MN 142 it can not be only one moment. It must be a longer period of time.
I used to think like zom, when I began to read thai translated tipitaka, about 15 years ago. However, for today, I can confirm that my old view is wrong and not complicated with the pāli. You can see follow this answer.

The truth is nothing in your quoted said "it can not be only one moment". So, your idea is still not sure.

And my idea still be able, because,one can give a gift to enlightening lokuttara-monk, who meditating insight-meditation while he receiving one's gift. In that time, if that bhikkhu enlightening nibbāna as sotāpanna, and if then that sotāpanna go ahead to practice lokiya-magga for sakadāgāmi-ariya's enlightenment. So one giving that gift to:
1. kalyānaputhujana's lokiya-magga.
2. Sotāpatti-phala-sacchikiriyāya-puggala's lokuttara-sotāpatti-magga (this Sotāpatti-phala-sacchikiriya is called as puggala, because it is puggalādiṭṭhāna-desanā.)
3. lokuttara-sotāpatti-phala
4. Sotāpanna who doing sotāpanna's lokiya-magga.

That one giving that gift to 4 people, just in a second.

So, you and me, still no one wrong.

But I have sutta-pāli, abhidhamma-pāli, commentary-pāli in my hand. So, we can decide the truth from the evidence, and the reason.

I showed you an evidence, but you not trust in it, so I will show you the reason:

1st reason: sotāpanna-lokuttara-magga is not just like you said "hearing about Dhamma for the first time and believing this is the right way without any doubt". So in alagaddūpama-sutta, buddha split them to two monk-type:
"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who are Dhamma-followers (dhammānusārī) and conviction-followers (saddhānusārī) [18] are all headed for self-awakening. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags.

"In the Dhamma thus well-proclaimed by me — clear, open, evident, stripped of rags — those monks who have a [sufficient] measure of conviction in me, a [sufficient] measure of love for me, are all headed for heaven. This is how the Dhamma well-proclaimed by me is clear, open, evident, stripped of rags."
2nd reason: according to above quoted sutta, dhamma/saddhānusārī are not just a puthujāna who are not absolutely lead to self-awakening, because many sutta such as cakkhu-sutta (quoted below) said that dhamma/saddhānusārī are sotāpanna.
perkele wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:09 am
Is dhammanusari/saddhanusari at 1. or at 2. in the list?
Every ariya must past those whole 3 steps, no exception.

This sutta show 2nd and 3rd step, of saddhānusārī-sotāpanna and dhammānusārī-sotāpanna:
4. Okkantasaṃyuttaṃ
1. Cakkhusuttaṃ
302. Sāvatthinidānaṃ . ‘‘Cakkhuṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi; sotaṃ aniccaṃ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi; ghānaṃ aniccaṃ vipariṇāmi aññathābhāvi; jivhā aniccā vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī ; kāyo anicco vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī; mano anicco vipariṇāmī aññathābhāvī. Yo, bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṃ saddahati adhimuccati – ayaṃ vuccati saddhānusārī, okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ, sappurisabhūmiṃ okkanto, vītivatto puthujjanabhūmiṃ; abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ, yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya; abhabbo ca [abhabbova (sī. syā. kaṃ.)] tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti’’.
‘‘Yassa kho, bhikkhave, ime dhammā evaṃ paññāya mattaso nijjhānaṃ khamanti, ayaṃ vuccati – ‘dhammānusārī, okkanto sammattaniyāmaṃ, sappurisabhūmiṃ okkanto, vītivatto puthujjanabhūmiṃ; abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ, yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya; abhabbo ca tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti’. Yo, bhikkhave, ime dhamme evaṃ pajānāti evaṃ passati, ayaṃ vuccati – ‘sotāpanno avinipātadhammo niyato sambodhiparāyano’’’ti. Paṭhamaṃ.
http://tipitaka.de/roman/tipitaka%20(mu ... uttam.html
Buddha said "abhabbo ca tāva kālaṃ kātuṃ yāva na sotāpattiphalaṃ sacchikaroti’’, because sotāpatti-phalaṃ must immediately arise after sotāpatti-maggaṃ in the same vīthī, without any other mind, such as dead-mind, between them. Afther this vīthī sotāpanna can die every moment.

So, buddha said "samādhimānantarikaññamāhu (K.N. Karaṇīyamettāsutta)" and "ānantariyaṃ (kamma that give the fruit immediately without any distance)" in this sutta:
Aṅguttara Nikāya 4

17. Paṭipadāvagga
162. Vitthārasutta

“Catasso imā, bhikkhave, paṭipadā. Katamā catasso? Dukkhā paṭipadā dandhābhiññā, dukkhā paṭipadā khippābhiññā, sukhā paṭipadā dandhābhiññā, sukhā paṭipadā khippābhiññā.

Katamā ca, bhikkhave, dukkhā paṭipadā dandhābhiññā? Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco pakatiyāpi tibba­rā­gajā­tiko hoti, abhikkhaṇaṃ rāgajaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti. Pakatiyāpi tibba­do­sajātiko hoti, abhikkhaṇaṃ dosajaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti. Pakatiyāpi tib­bamoha­jātiko hoti, abhikkhaṇaṃ mohajaṃ dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti. Tassimāni pañcindriyāni mudūni pātubhavanti— saddhindriyaṃ, vīriyindriyaṃ, satindriyaṃ, samādhindriyaṃ, paññindriyaṃ. So imesaṃ pañcannaṃ indriyānaṃ muduttā dandhaṃ ānantariyaṃ pāpuṇāti āsavānaṃ khayāya. Ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, dukkhā paṭipadā dandhābhiññā.
https://suttacentral.net/pi/an4.162
3rd reason: From people learned dhamma at 1st time, they still kill the mosquito. So, your lokuttara-magga is not compatibility with cakkhu-sutta (quoted above) " saddhānusārī, ...abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ, yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya’". Also, there are many sutta said that sotāpanna will not try to kill any animal, too.

So, your lokuttara-magga actually is just lokiya-magga.
1. I learn about Dhamma for the first time. I have faith and I am convinced this is the right way. (only one moment)
2. I try to practice. (many many years)
3. Maybe some day I become sotapanna. (only one moment, maybe in the future)
4th reason: That mosquito killer not compatible with 5 pahāna in A.N. Pañcakanipāta, also: tadaṅga-pahāna=a few trillion-second killing (lokiya-magga) kilesa of insight-practitioner, vikkhambhana-pahāna=a long term killing (lokiya-magga) kilesa of jhāna-practitioner, samuccheda-pahāna=perfectly completely killing (lokuttara-magga) kilesa of sotāpatti-magga, paṭipassaddhi-pahāna=after killed kilesa (phala) of sotāpatti-phala, nissaraṇa-pahāna=the opposit of kilesa (nibbāna).

The conclusion:


Just one case be possible is that you learn about Dhamma for the first time, and killed 1st-3rd of 10 saṅyojana, at the same moment, like aññākoñḍañña had done in dhammacakkappavattana-sutta.

Just this way you will not kill mosquito anymore.


For the moment question, the abhidhammatthasaṅgaha's 4th chapter link above, is already answered, please read inside first.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

theY
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:07 pm

If you trust in commentary and abhidhamma, This quote is the direct text from mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta-commentary. It is very clear.
Maggasaccaniddesavaṇṇanā

402.Ayamevāti aññamaggapaṭikkhepanatthaṃ niyamanaṃ. Ariyoti taṃ taṃ maggavajjhehi kilesehi ārakattā ariyabhāvakarattā ca ariyo. Dukkhe ñāṇantiādinā catusaccakammaṭṭhānaṃ dassitaṃ. Tattha purimāni dve saccāni vaṭṭaṃ, pacchimāni vivaṭṭaṃ. Tesu bhikkhuno vaṭṭe kammaṭṭhānābhiniveso hoti, vivaṭṭe natthi abhiniveso. Purimāni hi dve saccāni ‘‘pañcakkhandhā dukkhaṃ, taṇhā samudayo’’ti evaṃ saṅkhepena ca ‘‘katame pañcakkhandhā, rūpakkhandho’’tiādinā nayena vitthārena ca ācariyassa santike uggaṇhitvā vācāya punappunaṃ parivattento yogāvacaro kammaṃ karoti. Itaresu pana dvīsu saccesu nirodhasaccaṃ iṭṭhaṃ kantaṃ manāpaṃ, maggasaccaṃ iṭṭhaṃ kantaṃ manāpanti evaṃ savanena kammaṃ karoti. So evaṃ karonto cattāri saccāni ekapaṭivedheneva paṭivijjhati ekābhisamayena abhisameti. Dukkhaṃ pariññāpaṭivedhena paṭivijjhati, samudayaṃ pahānapaṭivedhena, nirodhaṃ sacchikiriyāpaṭivedhena, maggaṃ bhāvanāpaṭivedhena paṭivijjhati. Dukkhaṃ pariññābhisamayena…pe… maggaṃ bhāvanābhisamayena abhisameti. Evamassa pubbabhāge dvīsu saccesu uggahaparipucchāsavanadhāraṇasammasanapaṭivedho hoti, dvīsu pana savanapaṭivedhoyeva. Aparabhāge tīsu kiccato paṭivedho hoti, nirodhe ārammaṇapaṭivedho. Paccavekkhaṇā pana pattasaccassa hoti. Ayañca ādikammiko, tasmā sā idha na vuttā.

Imassa ca bhikkhuno pubbe pariggahato ‘‘dukkhaṃ parijānāmi, samudayaṃ pajahāmi, nirodhaṃ sacchikaromi, maggaṃ bhāvemī’’ti ābhogasamannāhāramanasikārapaccavekkhaṇā natthi, pariggahato paṭṭhāya hoti. Aparabhāge pana dukkhaṃ pariññātameva…pe… maggo bhāvitova hoti. Tattha dve saccāni duddasattā gambhīrāni, dve gambhīrattā duddasāni. Dukkhasaccañhi uppattito pākaṭaṃ, khāṇukaṇṭakapahārādīsu ‘‘aho dukkha’’nti vattabbatampi āpajjati. Samudayampi khāditukāmatābhuñjitukāmatādivasena uppattito pākaṭaṃ. Lakkhaṇapaṭivedhato pana ubhayampi gambhīraṃ. Iti tāni duddasattā gambhīrāni. Itaresaṃ pana dvinnaṃ dassanatthāya payogo bhavaggagahaṇatthaṃ hatthappasāraṇaṃ viya avīciphusanatthaṃ pādappasāraṇaṃ viya satadhā bhinnassa vālassa koṭiyā koṭipādanaṃ viya ca hoti. Iti tāni gambhīrattā duddasāni. Evaṃ duddasattā gambhīresu gambhīrattā ca duddasesu catūsu saccesu uggahādivasena pubbabhāgañāṇuppattiṃ sandhāya idaṃ dukkhe ñāṇantiādi vuttaṃ. Paṭivedhakkhaṇe pana ekameva taṃ ñāṇaṃ hoti.
www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/s0102a.att8.xml
lokiya-magga=training of no skill practitioner.

lokuttara-magga=graduation of practitioner's training.

By this view you will read tipitaka easier, more than your current view.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

perkele
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by perkele » Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:26 pm

Thank you, theY, for giving this very patient and careful explanation.

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu! :anjali:

You have given very good reasoning from suttas to show the difference betwenn saddhānusārī and dhammānusārī and "yesaṃ mayi saddhāmattaṃ pemamattaṃ".


I think I have to learn what is one vīthi (thought-process?) to understand more. The abhidhamma says there are millions and millions of vīthi in one blink of an eye, and each of them is only a few (17?) thought-moments.

https://ballwarapol.github.io/sangaha/c ... tm?#10-215
2. Vīthi is derived from vi + Ö i, to go.

This term means a way or street, but here it is used in the sense of process (paramparā). A thought-process consists of several thought-moments, and a thought-moment is never called a citta-vīthi.

/.../

4. Thought-processes

According to Abhidhamma ordinarily there is no moment when we do not experience a particular kind of consciousness, hanging on to some object - whether physical of mental. The time-limit of such a consciousness is termed one thought-moment. The rapidity of the succession of such thought-moments is hardly conceivable by the ken of human knowledge. Books state that within the brief duration of a flash of lightning, or in the twinkling of an eye billions of thought-moments may arise and perish.
But can there also be many vīthi at the same time? And can some vīthi maybe take very long? Or are all vīthi very short and happen million times faster than blink of an eye, and only one vīthi after another?

Is one vīthi always very short? Or can one vīthi happen maybe over many years, with 17 thought moments all belonging to this same vīthi, but a long time between them?
theY wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 am
3rd reason: From people learned dhamma at 1st time, they still kill the mosquito. So, your lokuttara-magga is not compatibility with cakkhu-sutta (quoted above) " saddhānusārī, ...abhabbo taṃ kammaṃ kātuṃ, yaṃ kammaṃ katvā nirayaṃ vā tiracchānayoniṃ vā pettivisayaṃ vā upapajjeyya’". Also, there are many sutta said that sotāpanna will not try to kill any animal, too.
Yes, this makes a lot of sense. Sadhu!

Now I can believe a bit more that there may be good reasoning in Abhidhamma, but I am still not sure about vithi.

When I first learnt about Buddha's teachings, I thought: "I believe that this is the truth and the right way without any doubt. But some things very difficult to understand in these translations from a very old language. And I will already go to hell anyway, because I have done many bad things, and my thinking is confused. I have no chance to get out of this." So I did not really try to practice Dhamma. I could not even sit for one moment still, because I had a lot of kukkuccha.

But then later at some point, I thought: "Okay, I will try to not go to hell. I have to start at some point. I will stop killing any living being, not even moscitos." And so I did not kill any living being for seven years, and many other things, thinking like in Dhammapada 121 and 122:
https://suttacentral.net/pi/dhp#121
https://suttacentral.net/en/dhp#121
It has helped me a lot to think in this way.

But a few months ago I started killing moscitos again. And the last time, two days ago, I killed two moscitos. I felt bad about it. I will try now to not kill moscitos again.

But would it not make sense to say for example that I had this vīthi for seven years that "I will not kill even a moscito", but then at some point I destroyed that vīthi?
I am just trying to understand the meaning of vīthi.
If, for example, we keep one thought in mind for a very long time, can this be the same as one citta-vīthi?

But I will also try to read Abhidhamma, when I have time, to see if I can understand it.

Thank you for explaining so much!
:anjali:

theY
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:50 am

Now I can believe a bit more that there may be good reasoning in Abhidhamma
I had been a science-math program in high school. I very recommend abhidhamma for people, who need to access sutta deeply in the reason.

Many doctors and nurses, who learned hard about science, in thailand try to learn abhidhamma, why?
perkele wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 10:26 pm
But can there also be many vīthi at the same time? (yes)
And can some vīthi maybe take very long? (maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing)
Or are all vīthi very short and happen million times faster than blink of an eye, and only one vīthi after another? (maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing)
Is one vīthi always very short? (minimum 5 mind-moments' ongoing to maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing.)
Or can one vīthi happen maybe over many years, with 17 thought moments all belonging to this same vīthi, but a long time between them? (vīthi-period is very short, but the past vīthi, in the past vīthi-period, can be pakata-upanissaya-paccaya[behavior-cause] of the present/future viīthi in present/future vīthi-period)
There are mind-moment and vīthi-period.

blink of an eye = over trillions mind-moments, some mind-moments are vīthī in vīthī-period and some mind-moments are bhavaṅga in vīthī-period-freed.
1 form-moment = 17 ongoing mind-moments.
Mind-moment = the fastest moment of everything. It can not measure, uncountable.
Each mind-moment in the vīthi-period is called vīthi.
Each mind-moment out of vīthi-period is called bhavaṅga.
1 regular state person's vīthi-period = minimum 5 mind-moments' ongoing to maximum 14 mind-moments' ongoing. Then bhavaṅga arise, uncounable ongoing, then each vīthi in 6 vīthi, such as smell-vīthi, arise. It is nonstop loop between vīthi-period and bhavaṅgas' ongoing.
1 jhāna state person's vīthi-period = no limit, for human maybe maximum 1-7 days. It depend on personal body's durability, because between the moment that one attaining jhāna, he can't not eat anything.
bhavaṅga=mind-moments arise before and after vīthi-periods. bhavaṅga is the fruit of past-kamma, that keeping present rebirth going on by it's management.
But would it not make sense to say for example that I had this vīthi for seven years that "I will not kill even a moscito", but then at some point I destroyed that vīthi?
I am just trying to understand the meaning of vīthi.
If, for example, we keep one thought in mind for a very long time, can this be the same as one citta-vīthi?
Mind-moment is the shortest & fastest in the universe. So, vīthi-period, maximum 14 mind-moments, is very short, too. But the past vīthi, in the past vīthi-period, can be pakata-upanissaya-paccaya[behavior-cause] of the present/future viīthi in present/future vīthi-period.

So, although the past vīthi finished in the past life, it still can be a cause of present/future life's effect, too.

Pakata-upanissaya-paccaya[behavior-cause] is in abhidhammatthasaṅgaha chapter 8, which you must have to learn 1st -7th chapter before. This chapter is the hardest lesson of tipitaka, it is called paṭṭhāna-abhidhamma-pitaka, the 7th canon of abhidhamma, the last canon of abhidhamma.

1st - 8th chapters of abhidhammatthasaṅgaha is the focus-stuff of insight-meditation in 9th chapter of it.
Last edited by theY on Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by cappuccino » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:38 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:36 am
Ābhidhammikas accept that there are eight kinds of individuals, but maintain that since path-attainment is followed immediately by fruition-attainment, four of the eight individuals don't last for very long.
One takes many steps on a mountain path.
Last edited by cappuccino on Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
neither eternal identity, nor annihilation

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:31 am

cappuccino wrote:Is a mountain path instantly traversed?
In the Buddhist conception, is the path to hell long or short?
It can be either. For one it might be a lifetime of habitually practised minor transgressions, while for another it might be a millisecond of wrath in which he shoots a bullet into his mother's brain.

In the Christian conception, is the path to heaven long or short? Again it can be either: for one a lifetime of piety, humility and charity, and for another —a lifelong reprobate— merely a moment of repentance as he falls off his horse and breaks his neck (Betwtixt the stirrup and the ground / He mercy sought and mercy found.).

And so the mere fact that something is called a "path" tells us nothing at all about whether it is long or short; and especially when the word is being used in an obviously figurative sense to denote something non-physical.
cappuccino wrote:One takes many steps on a mountain path.
While locomotion on a cycle-path takes no steps at all.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by cappuccino » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:00 am

A path endures for perhaps a great distance.

Such is the nature of a path.
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:34 am

cappuccino wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:00 am
A path endures for perhaps a great distance.

Such is the nature of a path.
You are still mistaking the inessential for the essential. What makes a path a path is that it leads from one thing to another. It may be short in distance or it may be long, or in some cases it may a path of such a kind that any talk of distance would be a category mistake.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by zerotime » Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:13 am

theY wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 am
if that bhikkhu enlightening nibbāna as sotāpanna, and if then that sotāpanna go ahead to practice lokiya-magga for sakadāgāmi-ariya's enlightenment.
Do you know texts or works summarizing that practice of lokiya-magga at that point?. Curious to know how the practice can be focused at that point

theY
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Fri Nov 17, 2017 4:58 pm

zerotime wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:13 am
theY wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:46 am
if that bhikkhu enlightening nibbāna as sotāpanna, and if then that sotāpanna go ahead to practice lokiya-magga for sakadāgāmi-ariya's enlightenment.
Do you know texts or works summarizing that practice of lokiya-magga at that point?. Curious to know how the practice can be focused at that point
If you want to know the procedure of anāgami's lokiya-magga:

The sotapanna's lokiya-magga-procedure and anāgāmi's 's lokuttara-magga-procedure are the same, anicca-dukkha-anattā insight meditation.

The differences between each ariya's step are the left of: meditation's object/kilesa/time ot reborn/unique ability/etc.

If you want to see the reference:

You just see dhammacakkappavattana-sutta, that made aññākoṇḍañña-pañcavaggī enlightened sotāpanna-magga&phala, and anattalakkhaṇa-sutta, that whole pañcavaggī enlightened arhatta-magga&phala.

You can see those both sutta taught the same content about 5 aggregates' arising and vanishing.

So, the difference is skill level of those both suttas' listener, not the procedure.

when you play mmorpg game, although today you fighting with the same monster in the same map of yesterday, but today your level maybe more than yesterday.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
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Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Zom
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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm

lokiya-magga=training of no skill practitioner.

lokuttara-magga=graduation of practitioner's training.
This is the first time I hear such explanation -)
Anyway, even if it is correct, it still sounds weird - the name "lokiya magga" for the name of actually world-transcending noble path 8-) I wonder, what is the reason for making such a confusion.
Haven't read these yet, but they've been on my to do list for a while, and may be of interest here:

The Nature of the Eight-factored Ariya, Lokuttara Magga in the Suttas Compared to the Pali Commentarial Idea of it as Momentary

The Saṅgha of Noble Sāvakas, with Particular Reference to their Trainee Member, the Person 'Practising for the Realization of the Stream-entry-fruit'
The first one I can't open, but the second paper is interesting, thanks .) There he cites, by the way, MN 117, and with this new perspective of "lokiya magga" as actual "lokuttara" one, I wonder how abidhammists can explain it, where the statement concerning the path is quite opposite.

And yes, this is what he writes there:

It seems that the Abhidhamma, and certainly the commentaries, in effect see the paṭipanna person as one who ‘is practising’ for the realization of the stream-entry-fruit only in the sense of ‘has been practising, but has now momentarily brought this to perfection’, rather than one who is currently practising for this. Or if one takes paṭipajjati, as meaning ‘to enter upon (a path)’, then the later tradition sees such a path as the momentary magga, while the suttas do not seem to talk in these terms. In the later tradition, any actual practising is done prior to the magga moment, which is immediately followed by stream-entry. When AN II 157 talks of ‘the magga is born (sañjāyati). He now pursues, develops and cultivates that magga, and while he is doing so the fetters are abandoned and the latent tendencies eliminated’, its commentary (AN-a III 143) says ‘there is no pursuit etc of
the magga that lasts one mind-moment, but bringing into being the second magga etc: of that, surely it is said “he pursues, develops and cultivates”’


And, also of interest there, is the Buddhaghosa's explanation on MN 142:

A gift given to him is surely of great fruit beyond that. But how is one able to give a gift to one endowed with the
magga? It is possible. A keen insight-practitioner, having taken his bowl and robes goes out for alms. Taking
the bowl from his hands when he is standing at the door of a house, they place
solid food (in it). At that moment there is the arising of the magga
for that monk. This is called giving a gift to one endowed with the
magga . Or then he is seated in a sitting-hall. People going (there) put solid food in (his) bowl. At that moment
there is the arising of the magga . This gift is called a gift to one endowed with the
magga. Or then of one seated in the sitting-hall, upāsaka s take the bowl, take it to their own house and place solid food (in it). At that moment there is the arising of the magga. This gift is called a gift to one endowed with the magga.


So, theY, is Buddhaghosa simply wrong here? He doesn't seem to maintain the idea if "lokiya-magga" here.

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:54 am

Nothing difference between suttanta and abhidhamma and commentary, when you deeply understood pali language.

Where is abidhammists' explanation? I found just the pāli's relationship. Abidhamma is just a dictionary that suttanta-memorizer, sāriputta-mahāsāvaka, made. So, I can explain below without any abhidhamma reference. But it looks like abhidhamma view, because nothing difference in main-content between suttanta and abhidhamma.

The difference in main-content between suttanta and abhidhamma is just the under standard tipitaka study, not recite whole tipitaka-pāli, not memorize whole tipitaka-pāli, not taught by professor who recited and memorized tipitaka.

See, ancient tipitaka study system for more detail.

All commentary teachers must done every courses inside that link.
Zom wrote:
Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:40 pm
lokiya-magga=training of no skill practitioner.

lokuttara-magga=graduation of practitioner's training.
This is the first time I hear such explanation -)
Anyway, even if it is correct, it still sounds weird - the name "lokiya magga" for the name of actually world-transcending noble path 8-) I wonder, what is the reason for making such a confusion.
Loka means breaking. Loka refer to 5 aggregates, because 5 arose aggregates (=12 āyatana) must vanish, breaking.

Iya means dependent.

Utara means independent, above, transcending.

Lokiya means (5) clinging-aggregates that depending on the other (5) clinging-aggregates.

Lokuttara means nibbāna and unclinging-aggregates that depending on nibbāna [4 lokuttara-magga + 4 lokuttara-phala].

So, you can see every words that I explained above in loka sutta.
Haven't read these yet, but they've been on my to do list for a while, and may be of interest here:

The Nature of the Eight-factored Ariya, Lokuttara Magga in the Suttas Compared to the Pali Commentarial Idea of it as Momentary

The Saṅgha of Noble Sāvakas, with Particular Reference to their Trainee Member, the Person 'Practising for the Realization of the Stream-entry-fruit'
The first one I can't open, but the second paper is interesting, thanks .) There he cites, by the way, MN 117, and with this new perspective of "lokiya magga" as actual "lokuttara" one, I wonder how abidhammists can explain it, where the statement concerning the path is quite opposite.
I even thought like that, when I was young and read translated sutta without pāli knowledge and without pāli-reciting&memorizing.

But the mahācattārīsakasutta-pāli is:
atthi bhikkhave sammādiṭṭhi sāsavā puññabhāgiyā upadhivepakkā; atthi bhikkhave sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā.
Translation:
Bhikkhu! there is right view with defilements, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming]; Bhikkhu! there is right view that is noble, without defilements, transcendent, a factor of the path.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Grammar of it:
  • atthi (main-verb)
  • bhikkhave (vocative)
  • sammādiṭṭhi (nominative)
  • sāsavā (adjective of sammādiṭṭhi)
  • puññabhāgiyā (adjective of sammādiṭṭhi)
  • upadhivepakkā (adjective of sammādiṭṭhi);
  • atthi bhikkhave sammādiṭṭhi ariyā anāsavā lokuttarā maggaṅgā (this sentence is the opposite of previous sentence).
So the this 3 words: sāsavā puññabhāgiyā and upadhivepakkā, are the synonym of each other.

Sāsavā-word
origins are kilesa-causes of sammādiṭṭhi: kāma-āsava, bhava-āsava, diṭṭhi-āsava, avijjā-āsava.

Puññabhāgiyā-word origins are kamma-causes of sammādiṭṭhi: wholesome [merit] and unwholesome [demerit]: saṇkhāra-paṭiccasamuppāda/kamma-bhava-paṭiccasamuppāda.

Upadhivepakkā-word origins are vipāka-effects of sammādiṭṭhi: clinging-aggregates (clinging: kāma-upādāna, bhava-upādāna, diṭṭhi-upādāna, avijjā-upādāna. aggregates: rūpa, vedanā, saññā, saṅkhāra, viññāṇa)

Obviously, mahācattārīsaka-sutta showing sāsavā sammādiṭṭhi as paticcasamuppāda.

So, in nibbedhika-sutta:
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, āsavānaṃ vipāko? Yaṃ kho, bhikkhave, avijjāgato tajjaṃ tajjaṃ attabhāvaṃ abhinibbatteti puññabhāgiyaṃ vā apuññabhāgiyaṃ vā, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, āsavānaṃ vipāko.

“And what is the fruit of defilements (āsavānaṃ vipāko)? Ignoring (in defilements) produces an existence, that was produced by defilements (such as avijā-āsava, etc), that was produced by merit or demerit (puññabhāgiyā). This is called the fruit of defilements.
https://suttacentral.net/en/an6.63
Therefore, sāsavā/puññabhāgiyā /upadhivepakkā sammādiṭṭhi = sammādiṭṭhi that was produced by defilements & by merit or by demerit, and produces it's defilement-co-produced fruits.

---------------------------------------

Why you have to quote too much commentary. Useless.

Just pāli is enough. If you recited&memorized&understand pāli words' relationship, no need commentary. It is the same.

I am a trustful buddhist in tipitaka, commentary, and abhidhamma. But "where is abhidhamma in this my reply?".

---------------------------------------

The translated tipitaka in thai and english are imperfect, lost many pāli relationship. But tipitaka-pāli is perfect. They link each other, no any big conflict between them. But the under standard tipitaka students, especially the western professors, trying to make them conflict with each other pitaka, because of their under standard tipitaka study system.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by theY » Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:36 am

For my every replies, I have a very terrible english, and conversation manner. So you can ask me back unlimited, if you doubt on some words.
Above message maybe out of date. Latest update will be in massage's link.
--------------------------------------------------
Tipitaka memorization is a rule of monks. It isn't just a choice. They must done it.
bahussuto nāma tividho hoti – nissayamuccanako, parisupaṭṭhāpako, bhikkhunovādakoti.
http://UnmixedTheravada.blogspot.com/20 ... monks.html

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Re: The arising of the four paths endures for only one mind-moment

Post by Zom » Sat Nov 18, 2017 4:02 pm

You still didn't answer - do you think Ven. Buddhaghosa is wrong in his explanation of MN 142?

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