Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:59 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:38 am
Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:16 am
As I clearly introduced my post: "I'll briefly tell what I think consciousness is." I tried to make it clear that I was not saying what conscciousness is according to others.....unless by coincidence they happen to have views identical to mine.

Other than this I don't know what your question is asking. You put "that" in italics but I don't really know what "that" is referring to.....if it is referring to the short excerpt you present then I say that the short excerpt you present does not express what I think consciousness is....you need to take the entire post as being a short description of my views on this. I think my post taken as a whole expresses something that is by and large understandable.
The rest of your larger exposition appeared to be about "some thing called consciousness", rather than consciousness per se. To wit, it didn't really explain much.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
It seems to me that what you call "consciousness per se" is the mental fabrication that I construe to be out there mixing it up with those sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tacticle sensations and cognitions which arise and I call "consciousness". I don't see why I need mention those products of my ignorance to be considered to be talking about consciousness per se.....maybe I'm missing something.
chownah

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Antaradhana
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Antaradhana » Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:10 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:39 pm
Greetings,
Antaradhana wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm
Unconstructed consciousness does not exist. Postulating this is the path to mahayana or advaita. The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
Depends what you think consciousness is.
Greetings!

Consciousness (viññāṇa) is the psyche process of that cognizes, i.e. register incoming signals arising from the contact of six doors of perception with the spheres of the perceived. It is impermanent, suffering and devoid of self, like other khandhas.

Feelings (pleasant / unpleasant / neutral) are not consciousness - this is vedanā.

Thought images are not consciousness - it is a saññā.

Thinking, will, memory, ideas, beliefs, life positions also are not consciousness - these are mental constructions (sankhāra).

It is very strange to consider consciousness as something that lasts longer than an instant reaction to signals from the senses, and even more so as to consider it as yourself.

A shining consciousness is a metaphor meaning a consciousness that does not cling to anything. Neither to the 5 external spheres, nor to the mental constructions (sankhāra).

P.S. Looks like I used the wrong word, here: "Unconstructed consciousness does not exist". It would be right: unconditioned consciousness does not exist. There is only one unconditioned dhamma - nibbana.
Last edited by Antaradhana on Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Modus.Ponens » Fri Aug 02, 2019 10:48 pm

Antaradhana wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 9:10 pm
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:39 pm
Greetings,
Antaradhana wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm
Unconstructed consciousness does not exist. Postulating this is the path to mahayana or advaita. The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
Depends what you think consciousness is.
Greetings!

Consciousness (viññāṇa) is the psyche process of that cognizes, i.e. register incoming signals arising from the contact of six doors of perception with the spheres of the perceived. It is impermanent, suffering and devoid of self, like other khandhas.

Feelings (pleasant / unpleasant / neutral) are not consciousness - this is vedanā.

Thought images are not consciousness - it is a saññā.

Thinking, will, memory, ideas, beliefs, life positions also are not consciousness - these are mental constructions (sankhāra).

It is very strange to consider consciousness as something that lasts longer than an instant reaction to signals from the senses, and even more so as to consider it as yourself.

A shining consciousness is a metaphor meaning a consciousness that does not cling to anything. Neither to the 5 external spheres, nor to the mental constructions (sankhāra).

P.S. Looks like I used the wrong word, here: "Unconstructed consciousness does not exist". It would be right: Non-conditioned consciousness does not exist. There is only one unconditioned dhamma - nibbana.
I think the idea is not to consider consciousness as something that lasts longer than an instant, let alone being a self.

If every sentient being has consciousness, then consciousness cannot be self. It's as impersonal as the atoms in our bodies.

And yes, each moment of consciousness lasts only an instant. But the analogy with space is useful here. Space around us is filled with matter in constant change. Each configuration of matter in space is different and it changes from moment to moment. But space is always that which contains matter, in one configuration or another. Consciousness is similar. Despite the many possible configurations of thoughts, sounds, sights, etc., and despite the fact that they change all the time, consciousness is still that which has the capacity to know those thoughts, sounds, sights, etc. This capacity of knowing cannot be damaged by what it knows any more than space can be damaged by the matter it contains.

Further, I suspect that what some teachers are referring to when they say that nibbana is pure consciousness is that nibbana is consciousness without content. Regular consciousness is always consciousness of something. But if we look at how the path & fruit moments are described, it sounds like the path moment is the mind letting go of everything and, for an instant, having no content. Like space without any matter at all. If that's the case, then nibbana is pure consciousness itself.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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robertk
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by robertk » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:25 pm

it sounds like the path moment is the mind letting go of everything and, for an instant, having no content. Like space without any matter at all. If that's the case, then nibbana is pure consciousness itself
Nibbana is the object of path consciousness, but is not consciousness: Theravada orthodoxy.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:53 am

robertk wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:25 pm
it sounds like the path moment is the mind letting go of everything and, for an instant, having no content. Like space without any matter at all. If that's the case, then nibbana is pure consciousness itself
Nibbana is the object of path consciousness, but is not consciousness: Theravada orthodoxy.
How does the Theravada orthodoxy define nibbana?

(By orthodoxy do you mean the Abhiddhamma & commentary standard interpretation?)
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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mikenz66
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:23 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:53 am
How does the Theravada orthodoxy define nibbana?

(By orthodoxy do you mean the Abhiddhamma & commentary standard interpretation?)
See, for example Visuddhimagga, Chapter XVI:
76. Briefly (see XXII.31 for details), when a meditator is progressing towards
the penetration of the four truths, his eye of understanding with Nibbána as its
object eliminates the inherent tendency to ignorance, and that is right view. It has
right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested
as the abolition of the darkness of ignorance.
Or this Note in A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=826
[Guide to Chapter I §§26-28]
Supramundane consciousness (lokuttaracittani): Supramundane
consciousness is consciousness that pertains to the process of transcend-
ing (uttara) the world (loka) consisting of the five aggregates of cling-
ing. This type of consciousness leads to liberation from sa1⁄2s±ra, the
cycle of birth and death, and to the attainment of Nibbana, the cessa-
tion of suffering. There are eight supramundane cittas. These pertain to
the four stages of enlightenment—stream-entry, once-returning, non-re-
turning, and Arahantship. Each stage involves two types of citta, path
consciousness (maggacitta) and fruition consciousness (phalacitta), as
seen in Table 1.7. All supramundane cittas take as object the uncondi-
tioned reality, Nibbana, but they differ as paths and fruits according to
their functions. The path consciousness has the function of eradicating
(or of permanently attenuating) 11 defilements; the fruition consciousness
has the function of experiencing the degree of liberation made possible
by the corresponding path. The path consciousness is a kusalacitta, a
wholesome state; the fruition consciousness is a vipakacitta, a result-
ant.
:heart:
Mike

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cappuccino
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by cappuccino » Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:44 am

Antaradhana wrote: The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
A Pyrrhic victory is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat.

On Self, No Self, and Not-self

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robertk
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by robertk » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:23 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:53 am
robertk wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:25 pm
it sounds like the path moment is the mind letting go of everything and, for an instant, having no content. Like space without any matter at all. If that's the case, then nibbana is pure consciousness itself
Nibbana is the object of path consciousness, but is not consciousness: Theravada orthodoxy.
How does the Theravada orthodoxy define nibbana?

(By orthodoxy do you mean the Abhiddhamma & commentary standard interpretation?)
Yes :anjali:

See mike's posts for details..

sentinel
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by sentinel » Sat Aug 03, 2019 7:47 am

Thought only understand the consciousness conceptually . There is a difference between thought and consciousness .
The idea that the consciousness last for an instant is a misconception .
:buddha1:

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:20 am

Thank you Mike. I have the electronic version of the Visuddhimagga's and I'll try to look more details there.

I've said enough on this thread.

:anjali:
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:04 am

.




Pure or whatever.


If that awareness awares, it is not unconditioned.

If that awareness does not aware, umm ... :rolleye:


Easy.



.
🅢🅐🅑🅑🅔 🅓🅗🅐🅜🅜🅐 🅐🅝🅐🅣🅣🅐
  • "the one thing all the mistaken views have in common is the assump­tion that the self exists" ~ DN1
  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Antaradhana
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Antaradhana » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:01 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:44 am
Antaradhana wrote: The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
A Pyrrhic victory is a victory that inflicts such a devastating toll on the victor that it is tantamount to defeat.

Consciousness is not I/Self, who would be destroyed. It is simply a conditional, suffering and painful process - the cessation of which is the highest good.
Last edited by Antaradhana on Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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cappuccino
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:06 pm

Antaradhana wrote: who would be destroyed
"Well then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"

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Antaradhana
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Antaradhana » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:11 pm

cappuccino wrote:
Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:06 pm
Antaradhana wrote: who would be destroyed
"Well then, friend Kotthita, does the Tathagata not exist after death?"

"Friend, that too has not been declared by the Blessed One: 'The Tathagata does not exist after death.'"
Any of the four statements about the Tathagata after death is incorrect, since it has a prerequisite in the form of the existence of the self. There is no self that would be eternal or annihilated. But the fickle, suffering, impersonal khandhas cease at the time of the death of Arahant.

"Abhedi kāyo nirodhi saññā,
Vedanā sītibhaviṃsu sabbā;
Vūpasamiṃsu saṅkhārā,
Viññāṇaṃ atthamāgamāti".
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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cappuccino
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by cappuccino » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:21 pm

Antaradhana wrote:There is no self that would be eternal or annihilated.
(smacks you with a stick)

:shrug:

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