Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by salayatananirodha » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:41 am

nibbāna is the cessation of consciousness
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
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http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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retrofuturist
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:46 am

Greetings,
salayatananirodha wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 2:41 am
nibbāna is the cessation of consciousness
The cessation of fabricated (sankhata) consciousness, yes.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by salayatananirodha » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:35 pm

and what consciousness is going to be unfabricated?
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/wp-conte ... _Heart.pdf
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Antaradhana
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Antaradhana » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm

Unconstructed consciousness does not exist. Postulating this is the path to mahayana or advaita. The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
All that is subject to arising is subject to termination, all formations are non-permanent. And that which is impermanent is suffering. Regarding what is impermanent and prone to suffering, one cannot say: "This is mine, I am this, this is my self".

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Modus.Ponens » Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:56 pm

robertk wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:37 am
Ajahn Sumedho has also said many times that pure consciouss awareness is the true refuge, since you dont create awareness but you can create a self around/out of awareness through ignorance but its this pure awareness that is the unconditoned, unmade, unborn etc
On this thread someonme made the above comment. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=961" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Just thought it deserved to be refuted on its own thread. I have no idea if Sumedho ever said this but whoever did it is not what the Buddha taught.
There - refuted now. :tongue:
I know he said something similar in the talk linked below. But we should be careful about the interpretation of this statement.

If I recall correctly, he is not saying that someone with pure mindfulness, or bare awareness, or 4th jhana, is in nibbana. I think he is saying that consciousness itself, the faculty of knowing itself, is the unconditioned. When striped from greed, hatred, and delusion, consciousness is the faculty of knowing, of subjective awareness. It's what makes us different from rocks. That faculty of awareness is not composed, it is not created. It is beyond suffering because what ever arises and ceases in our awareness is unable to damage it, just like you cannot damage space itself by swinging a hammer against it. If I recall correctly, Ajahn Sumedho uses the analogy with space in the dhamma talk.


https://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/audio_ ... /3670.html
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:39 pm

Greetings,
Antaradhana wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm
Unconstructed consciousness does not exist. Postulating this is the path to mahayana or advaita. The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
Depends what you think consciousness is.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

markandeya
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by markandeya » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:10 am

To understand what Ajahn Sumedho is saying one needs to have had some experience, as what he says is very simple and directly pointing to that which doesnt change and there is no refuge in that which changes, so just goes to show.....


vinnanam anidassanam anantam sabbato pabham

consciousness that is sign-less, boundless, all luminous.

Atammayata

Ajahn Buddhadasa spent his last 3 years discoursing this word claiming it it to be the ultimate buddhist concept.

Mike
In fact, as I recall, Ajahn Sumedho has explicitly stated in a talk I listened to (perhaps on his 70th birthday) that he has not realised Nibbana
Why would he , or why would anyone claim they are enlightened, it would give off the wrong impression.

One only needs some experience for real saddha, which is attention based not conceptual or doctrinal meaning based.

:reading: :shrug:

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:38 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:39 pm
Greetings,
Antaradhana wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm
Unconstructed consciousness does not exist. Postulating this is the path to mahayana or advaita. The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
Depends what you think consciousness is.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I'll briefly tell what I think consciousness is.

There are lights and colors and sounds and tastes and smells and bodily sensations and mental activity....there they are.

They are there whether I think up an idea about some thing called "consciousness" or not.

If I think up some idea about something called "consciousness" and take on the view that it is out there in those colors and sounds and tastes and smells and bodily sensation and mental activity then this is my ignorance.

It is my ignorance because the idea about something called "consciousness" is a mental construction, a fabrication, a construal and I have created it and wrongly placed it in with those lights and sounds and smells and tastes and bodily sensations and mental activitiy......I should more rightly be aware that in the seen is only the seen, in the sensed only the sensed, in the cognized is only the cognition.

I think the very most substantial thing that can be said about "consciousness" is that it is an effemeral thought of a fabricated idea....arising as just a mental activity and quickly passing away....

chownah

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:49 am

Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:38 am
.I should more rightly be aware that in the seen is only the seen, in the sensed only the sensed, in the cognized is only the cognition.
Sure, but is that consciousness, according to you, and according to others?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Lankamed » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:58 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:39 pm
Greetings,
Antaradhana wrote:
Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:43 pm
Unconstructed consciousness does not exist. Postulating this is the path to mahayana or advaita. The ultimate nibbana is the complete cessation of any consciousness.
Depends what you think consciousness is.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Could you kindly elaborate on "what consciousness is?"

Thanks

pegembara
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by pegembara » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:03 am

Is consciousness better understood as a verb (a process)?

I THINK, THEREFORE I THINK THAT I AM.
Descartes thought of “the mind” as a noun; it was a thing, and it existed. This led to what’s called “Cartesian Dualism,” the belief that the world is made up of two kinds of things, matter and mind. It turns out, dualism has some huge problems, and has been almost completely abandoned. It makes much more sense to think of “mind” as a verb, as in, “my brain thinks.” There is simply matter, and that matter undergoes a process that results in thoughts.

https://www.quora.com/Is-consciousness- ... -a-process
"No, lord, for in many ways the Blessed One has said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.'"

"It's good, monks, that you understand the Dhamma taught by me in this way, for in many ways I have said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
"Now tell me, friend Sariputta: is consciousness self-made or other-made or both self-made & other-made, or — without self-making or other-making, does it arise spontaneously?"

"It's not the case, Kotthita my friend, that consciousness is self-made, that it is other-made, that it is both self-made & other-made, or that — without self-making or other-making — it arises spontaneously. However, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness."

It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Pondera » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:14 am

Gravitational waves bring the moon into contact with the Earth and vice versa.

Consciousness is like a gravitational wave; bringing sense media into contact with sense faculty.

Once you take this technical approach to the meaning of consciousness, then you transcend “dualism” and “idealism” and you finally reach a “vision” where the things we perceive really do exist “out there - exactly as we would think”.

That is how the state of neither perception nor non perception exists. A) The faculties are bright - so there is a type of perception B) the objects exist but are beyond contact - so, even though we “know” they are there - it is non-perception (we do not “technically” perceive them - because the carrier is gone; consciousness is gone).

I agree with Modus.Ponens. The mind faculty can not be destroyed. Awareness is unconditioned.

It can be severely afflicted though. It can become sick. Just as it can become liberated; it can become damned.
What is “rupa” Jhāna? Here are four simple meditations on earth, water, fire, and wind - leading to tranquility and pleasure, rapture and equanimity - peacehttps://drive.google.com/open?id=1sdgpi ... hIz3wgz7ep

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:16 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:49 am
Greetings Chownah,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:38 am
.I should more rightly be aware that in the seen is only the seen, in the sensed only the sensed, in the cognized is only the cognition.
Sure, but is that consciousness, according to you, and according to others?

Metta,
Paul. :)
As I clearly introduced my post: "I'll briefly tell what I think consciousness is." I tried to make it clear that I was not saying what conscciousness is according to others.....unless by coincidence they happen to have views identical to mine.

Other than this I don't know what your question is asking. You put "that" in italics but I don't really know what "that" is referring to.....if it is referring to the short excerpt you present then I say that the short excerpt you present does not express what I think consciousness is....you need to take the entire post as being a short description of my views on this. I think my post taken as a whole expresses something that is by and large understandable.

chownah

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:38 am

Greetings,
chownah wrote:
Fri Aug 02, 2019 4:16 am
As I clearly introduced my post: "I'll briefly tell what I think consciousness is." I tried to make it clear that I was not saying what conscciousness is according to others.....unless by coincidence they happen to have views identical to mine.

Other than this I don't know what your question is asking. You put "that" in italics but I don't really know what "that" is referring to.....if it is referring to the short excerpt you present then I say that the short excerpt you present does not express what I think consciousness is....you need to take the entire post as being a short description of my views on this. I think my post taken as a whole expresses something that is by and large understandable.
The rest of your larger exposition appeared to be about "some thing called consciousness", rather than consciousness per se. To wit, it didn't really explain much.

:thanks:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by sentinel » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:01 pm

The Theravada tradition refused to equal the nibbana to Mahayana Buddha nature is but only an verbal supposition .
:coffee:

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