Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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mikenz66
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:05 pm

clw_uk wrote: We all have experience of it we just dont realise, its always there its just over looked because its so subtle and ordinary
With metta, I think you are probably seriously overestimating and overinterpreting your experiences. Go and spend a few days with Ajahn Sumedho, or some other competent teacher, and then tell us if you're still so confident about your knowledge...

Mike

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:14 pm

clw_uk wrote:
We all have experience of it we just dont realise, its always there its just over looked because its so subtle and ordinary


With metta, I think you are probably seriously overestimating and overinterpreting your experiences. Go and spend a few days with Ajahn Sumedho, or some other competent teacher, and then tell us if you're still so confident about your knowledge...

Mike

Thank you for your advice


Just to be clear though im not declaring final knowledge,


in reguards to arahantship always being there this comes from the fact that arahantship isnt becoming, you dont become an arahant, its a realization of reality, reality isnt created its always there its just overlooked or smothered by ignorance etc which is why the buddha says
'This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise

Subtle and hard to see are important words here i feel, if something is subtle and hard to see its already there isnt it its just easily overlooked because its so subtle or hard to detect

Its beyond the scope of conjecture since you cant think into awareness "I will be aware" you just are aware, awareness isnt thinking its just knowing

This i feel is what Ajahn Sumedho teaches
The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different. You're not good enough the way you are right now, so you have to meditate and hopefully some time in the future you'll become something that you'd like to become.
(not aimed at you)

http://www.amaravati.org/abm/english/do ... 11cas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;




:anjali:

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mikenz66
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:58 pm

clw_uk wrote: Just to be clear though im not declaring final knowledge, ...
Nevertheless, you are lecturing us on the nature of that final knowledge and how we should interpret the Suttas, etc... :soap:

Regarding Ajahn Sumedho's statement here:
The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different. You're not good enough the way you are right now, so you have to meditate and hopefully some time in the future you'll become something that you'd like to become.
It is certainly should become obvious after a while that meditating "to get something" doesn't work very well. I'm a bit slow so it took me a while to really understand this properly...

Mike

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:18 pm

Nevertheless, you are lecturing us on the nature of that final knowledge and how we should interpret the Suttas, etc...

I have stressed in both threads that i am just talking about my experience, my understanding and i am just expressing them. I dont know how much more i can stress that im not lecturing

if expressing a view is lecturing then we are all guilty of it

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:23 pm

PS, it's much clearer what Ajahn Sumedho is saying if you quote the whole paragraph or so. I don't see that he's implying anything about "already being enlightened".
Sumedho wrote:With the right understanding, we see that the very desire 'to get rid of' is suffering. We can bear with the feeling of insecurity if we know what it is, and that it changes, it's impermanent. So more and more you begin to feel confident in just being aware and mindful rather than trying to develop your practice in order to become an enlightened person. The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different. You're not good enough the way you are right now, so you have to meditate and hopefully some time in the future you'll become something that you'd like to become.


Metta
Mike

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:24 pm

Sure i could be wrong and awareness is just the way to and whats left after nibbana, i did say in the other thread that all this was coming from my own understanding of my meditation exp. and teachings i have read/heard, mainly from Ajahn Sumedho



In reguards to awareness as true refuge not being taught by Buddha, i feel this is incorrect

In reguards to our current differences in understanding of nibbana, thats fine we just read/understand the suttas that discuss it slightly differently



My current understaning is that luminous mind is pure conscious awareness, complete mindfulness that is there behind every experience. Its the natural state that is there before all the artifical constructs of "I am" "I like" "good" "bad" etc are fabricated



One thing i have noticed in my meditation is that mindfulness isnt created, one doesnt think "i will be mindful" or "i am mindful" one just is mindful, its just something that gets over looked because of the defilements etc




so by letting go ones mindfulness becomes stronger. IMO the word "developed" is just a conventional word to imply the strengthening of mindfulness

Thats coming from my experience during meditation anyway




IMO the Buddhdhamma is an unfolding of reality, uncovering what is already there



Of course dont take any of this as true just because i have said it, this has come from my own meditation practice and understandings of the Buddha's word

This is taken from this thread an the other one thats connected to this one

How is any of this lecturing?, i keep stating that this is all from my own understanding, im just expressing im not telling

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:36 pm

With the right understanding, we see that the very desire 'to get rid of' is suffering. We can bear with the feeling of insecurity if we know what it is, and that it changes, it's impermanent. So more and more you begin to feel confident in just being aware and mindful rather than trying to develop your practice in order to become an enlightened person. The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different. You're not good enough the way you are right now, so you have to meditate and hopefully some time in the future you'll become something that you'd like to become.

Assume there isnt enlightenment already here and that you have to go and find it or seek it



just to avoid any misunderstandings im not lecturing this is from my own understanding of what he is saying im not telling people how it is



:anjali:

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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:49 pm

Let's get back to the OP.

In replying to Robert's query about whether you really meant that nibbana was just awareness:
...its this pure awareness that is the unconditoned, unmade, unborn etc
You essentially repeat your assertion that nibbana is "awareness":
What is the true refuge? Its complete awareness, the unconditioned
You then quote a Sutta section talking about "refuge"
35. "Those bhikkhus of mine, Ananda, who now or after I am gone, abide as an island unto themselves, as a refuge unto themselves, seeking no other refuge; having the Dhamma as their island and refuge, seeking no other refuge: it is they who will become the highest, if they have the desire to learn."
But that seem to me to be talking about the path to Nibbana (as I've highlighted), not Nibbana itself, so offers no support for your "awareness is nibbana" theory.

Metta
Mike
Last edited by mikenz66 on Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mikenz66
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:59 pm

clw_uk wrote: Assume there isnt enlightenment already here and that you have to go and find it or seek it
I don't read it that way, but I seem to be having trouble explaining it...

As Ajahn Sumedho says the desire to have things different from how they are is the problem (Second Noble Truth):
With the right understanding, we see that the very desire 'to get rid of' is suffering.
The rest of what he says is about the things that we want to change:
The assumption is that right now you're not enlightened, you've got a lot of problems, you've got to change your life, you're got to make yourself different.
We want to change that we are not enlightened. We want to get rid of the bad stuff in our lives, etc.

In my view he's simply emphasising that the wanting is the problem.

Metta
Mike

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Ceisiwr » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:00 am

Just to state im not lecturing



Is an Arahant aware or unaware, wouldnt that awareness be pure untarnished knowing?


I think confusion may come from seeing awareness as a thing, its not a thing as you cant really describe awareness you can only experience it

Pure awareness is subtle, hidden because of defilements etc. This i feel is in line with the fact you dont become a stream-winner or Arahant, they are realizations through awareness eventualy leaving only complete knowing, pure awareness

When one is aware there is no i making because there is no grasping as you see things as they are, you see reality. Thats why i feel we practice mindfulness of breathing etc, through this awareness gets deeper and deeper so we see more of reality and so awareness is less and less tarnished because of that vision leading to more awarness and knowing until there is complete knowing of reality or awareness


Nibbana is the putting out of the fires of greed hatred and delusion by seeing things as they are through awareness (and so having no ignorance, craving etc), pure awareness is what is left after

Its the means and in the end all there is, pure conscious awareness, clear knowing of things as they are

No coming or going, no me or mine just seeing things as they are


Once again this is from my understanding im not telling people


:anjali:

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robertk
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by robertk » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:08 am

All mental states, whatsoever, are conditioned and evanescent. Whatever mind states that arise for an arahat are of course all conditioned and evanescent, no exceptions.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:30 am

All mental states, whatsoever, are conditioned and evanescent. Whatever mind states that arise for an arahat are of course all conditioned and evanescent, no exceptions.
Except that the "mental/mind states" are no longer conditioned by greed, hatred, and delusion.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by Ngawang Drolma. » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:13 am

I'm having trouble understanding what's innacurate about what Craig is saying :?

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tiltbillings
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:32 am

Craig:
Nibbana is the putting out of the fires of greed hatred and delusion by seeing things as they are through awareness (and so having no ignorance, craving etc), pure awareness is what is left after
Sure, if you mean by pure awareness that rise and fall of awareness/consciousness which is no longer colored by greed, hatred and delusion. No need to make something mystical out of this.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

sureshy
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Re: Pure consciousness awareness is the unconditioned.

Post by sureshy » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:22 am

Hi All,

The question I have is what is pure awareness in terms of our make up:

1. MUST be in the 5 khandas as there is nothing in the human make up outside of the 5 khandas.
2. Is something outside of the 5 khandas which the citta is in tune with (nibbana element)

any thoughts?

Suresh

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