New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Why his headaches are a consideration here is beyond me. I agree with your assessment of what a priceless gift he given the world with his careful translations and Dhamma studies.
It's relevant because you cast aspersions upon me that I was claiming to be assessing Bhikkhu Bodhi's progress in the Dhamma and I was refuting that by saying that my statement claimed only that he was not an asekha, and that he himself says that his headaches have prevented the mental cultivation required to progress as he would otherwise like.
The unfortunate "aspersions" were, I would have to say, the result of your poorly worded statement, and for any and all aspersions, I apologize.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by cooran »

Hello David, all,

Khuddaka Nikaya
The Dhammapada Stories
Translated by Daw Mya Tin, M.A.,
Burma Pitaka Association (1986)
Source: http://www.nibbana.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
________________________________________
Chapter XV: Happiness (Sukhavagga)
-ooOoo-
Verse 197 to 199
XV (1) The Story of the Pacification of the Relatives of the Buddha
The Buddha uttered Verse (197) to (199) of this book, in the Sakyan country, with reference to his relatives who were quarrelling over the use of the water from the Rohini river.

Kapilavatthu the town of the Sakyans and Koliya the town of the Kolyans were situated on either side of the Rohini river. The cultivators of both towns worked the fields watered by the Rohini river. One year, they did not have enough rain and finding that the paddy and other crops were beginning to shrivel up, cultivators on both sides wanted to divert the water from the Rohini river to their own fields. Those living in Koliya said that there was not enough water in the river for both sides, and that if only they could channel the water just once more to their fields that would be enough for the paddy to mature and ripen. On the other hand, people from Kapilavatthu argued that, in that case, they would be denied the use of the water and their crops would surely fail, and they would be compelled to buy from other people. They said that they were not prepared to go carrying their money and valuables to the opposite bank of the river in exchange for food.

Both sides wanted the water for their own use only and there was much ill will between them due to abusive language and accusations on both sides. The quarrel that started between the cultivators came to the ears of the ministers concerned, and they reported the matter to their respective rulers, and both sides prepared to go to war.

The Buddha, surveying the world with his supernormal powers, saw his relatives on both sides of the river coming out to meet in battle and he decided to stop them. All alone, he went to them by going through the sky, and stopped immediately above the middle of the river. His relatives seeing him, powerfully and yet peacefully sitting above them in the sky, hid aside all their weapons and paid obeisance to the Buddha.

Then, the Buddha said to them, "For the sake of some water, which is of little value, you should not destroy your lives which are of so much value and priceless. Why have you taken this stupid action? If I had not stopped you today, your blood would have been flowing like a river by now. You live hating your enemies, but I have none to hate; you are ailing with moral defilements, but I am free from them; you are striving to have sensual pleasures, but I do not strive for them."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:
Verse 197: Indeed we live very happily, not hating anyone among those who hate; among men who hate we live without hating anyone.
Verse 198: Indeed we live very happily, in good health among the ailing; among men who are ailing we live in good health.
Verse 199: Indeed we live very happily, not striving (for sensual pleasures) among these who strive (for them); among those who strive (for them) we live without striving.

At the end of the discourse many people attained Sotapatti Fruition.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... /dhp/i.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
dreamov
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by dreamov »

retrofuturist wrote:I just believe that the complete overwhelming volume of suttas telling the bhikkhus to strive for arahantship, vis-a-vis the complete absence of instances in the Tipitaka (to the best of my knowledge) where the Buddha encourages bhikkhus to lead up or participate in charity work to feed or clothe the poor, should not be brushed aside out of respect for a particular bhikkhu.
Metta,
Retro. :)
:goodpost:
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Ben
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:I'm only commenting on how and what the Buddha taught, as it has been passed to us in the Sutta and Vinaya Pitakas.
An important caveat here Retro is "as per your understanding".

Given that Bhikkhu Bodhi has been a pali scholar for many decades as he has also been a translator and teacher, do you believe you are in a position to criticise Bhante's behaviour? If so, can you please detail what you believe qualifies you to make an assessment on his behaviour? This is not an ad hominem, Paul. I am merely querying you as to determine your authority to make a valid critique.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Dan74
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by Dan74 »

retro wrote:I just believe that the complete overwhelming volume of suttas telling the bhikkhus to strive for arahantship, vis-a-vis the complete absence of instances in the Tipitaka (to the best of my knowledge) where the Buddha encourages bhikkhus to lead up or participate in charity work to feed or clothe the poor, should not be brushed aside out of respect for a particular bhikkhu.
I think this duality works well for scholars but in life any monastic would do any number of activities which are not strictly and formally connected with attaining arahatship. Kindness and compassion are entirely compatible with any Buddhist path and tradition, IMO, but it seems that you are saying that extinguishing delusion is something that is completely unconnected with other people and any activity that concerns others is really a distraction from this "core business."

Am I reading you correctly?
Last edited by Dan74 on Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by tiltbillings »

dreamov wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I just believe that the complete overwhelming volume of suttas telling the bhikkhus to strive for arahantship, vis-a-vis the complete absence of instances in the Tipitaka (to the best of my knowledge) where the Buddha encourages bhikkhus to lead up or participate in charity work to feed or clothe the poor, should not be brushed aside out of respect for a particular bhikkhu.
Metta,
Retro. :)
:goodpost:
On the other hand:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... bl132.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,

How do you define "criticizing his behaviour"?

I am not saying he has done anything wrong.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
Yes, undeniably the Sangha are to tend to each other in times of illness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
Yes, undeniably the Sangha are to tend to each other in times of illness.

Metta,
Retro. :)
And as the monks at Wat Phra Baht Nam Phu (as well as the article itself) shows, the Sangha may have a moral imperative to do more than just tend sick monks, and as the article shows, such actions are very much Dhamma practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dan,
Dan74 wrote:IMO, but it seems that you are saying that extinguishing delusion is something that is completely unconnected with other people and any activity that concerns others is really a distraction from this "core business."
I probably wouldn't word it quite like that (since it devalues the gift of the Dhamma that the ordained provide each other and the laity), but as an approximation it's not far off the mark with respect to the Buddha's instructions. A monk is expected to reflect frequently on the following...

AN 10.48: Dasadhamma Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thus have I heard:

On one occasion the Blessed One was living near Savatthi at Jetavana at the monastery of Anathapindika.

Then the Blessed One addressed the monks, saying: "Monks." — "Venerable Sir," they said by way of reply. The Blessed One then spoke as follows:

"These ten essentials must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth (to live the holy life). What are these ten?

1. "'I am now changed into a different mode of life (from that of a layman).' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

2. "'My life depends on others.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

3. "'I must now behave in a different manner.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

4. "'Does my mind upbraid me regarding the state of my virtue?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

5. "'Do my discerning fellow-monks having tested me, reproach me regarding the state of my virtue?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

6. "'There will be a parting (some day) from all those who are dear and loving to me. Death brings this separation to me.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

7. "'Of kamma I am constituted. Kamma is my inheritance; kamma is the matrix; kamma is my kinsman; kamma is my refuge. Whatever kamma I perform, be it good or bad, to that I shall be heir.' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

8. "'How do I spend my nights and days?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

9. "'Do I take delight in solitude?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

10. "'Have I gained superhuman faculties? Have I gained that higher wisdom so that when I am questioned (on this point) by fellow-monks at the last moment (when death is approaching) I will have no occasion to be depressed and downcast?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.

"These, monks, are the essentials that should be reflected again and again by one who has gone forth (to live the holy life)."

So spoke the Blessed One. Those monks rejoiced at the words of the Blessed One.
"Engaged Buddhism" as it has become known, runs directly counter to #9, and potentially also away from #1, #2, #3, #8 and #10.

These are the essentials that should be reflected again and again by one who has gone forth to live the holy life.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:AN 10.48: Dasadhamma Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .piya.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thus have I heard:
. . .
9. "'Do I take delight in solitude?' This must be reflected upon again and again by one who has gone forth.. . .
"Engaged Buddhism" as it has become known, runs directly counter to #9,
On the question of what "Ideal Solitude" might mean, Ven Nanananda: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el188.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings David,
David N. Snyder wrote:If it is in the Sutta Pitaka or Vinaya Pitaka, then we could possibly say that the Buddha was the "first socially engaged Buddhist" and could then infer that he would approve of such projects and activities today, even among monastics.
It would seem that one's from the Dhammapada Stories (i.e. not-canonical).

In my opinion, the Buddha's actual "social engagement" is better typified as such...

SN 6.1: Ayacana Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's also worth keeping in mind that if there is no canonical record of the Buddha organising material charity for the laity, that:

1. It is entirely consistent with his assessment that the Dhamma is the greatest of all gifts.
2. Even a fully-enlightened one who had no further training to undergo, prioritised Dhamma-preaching by himself and the Sangha over material charity for the laity.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro,
What would be more convincing is if you could produce sutta, vinaya (or god-forbid commentarial) sources unequivocally proscribing the sorts of activities Bhikkhu Bodhi is engaged in.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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retrofuturist
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:What would be more convincing is if you could produce sutta, vinaya (or god-forbid commentarial) sources unequivocally proscribing the sorts of activities Bhikkhu Bodhi is engaged in.
That would demonstrate that Bhikkhu Bodhi's actions are wrong or forbidden, but that has never been my claim.

My claim is that the Buddha did not teach what we nowadays call "Engaged Buddhism" and that the Buddha is the greatest of teachers. If "Engaged Buddhism" really is as good as Buddhavacana, he would have taught "Engaged Buddhism" instead. But he didn't... so it isn't.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Ben
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Re: New Bhikkhu Bodhi Interview

Post by Ben »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ben,
Ben wrote:What would be more convincing is if you could produce sutta, vinaya (or god-forbid commentarial) sources unequivocally proscribing the sorts of activities Bhikkhu Bodhi is engaged in.
That would demonstrate that Bhikkhu Bodhi's actions are wrong or forbidden, but that has never been my claim.

My claim is that the Buddha did not teach what we nowadays call "Engaged Buddhism" and that the Buddha is the greatest of teachers. If "Engaged Buddhism" really is as good as Buddhavacana, he would have taught "Engaged Buddhism" instead. But he didn't... so it isn't.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Well, I'll take Bhikkhu Bodhi's example as being indicative that such activity is in keeping with the Dhamma.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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