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little lies, big lies

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:07 am
by tiltbillings
Death: HUMANS NEED FANTASY TO *BE* HUMAN. TO BE THE PLACE WHERE THE FALLING ANGEL MEETS THE RISING APE.

Susan: With tooth fairies? Hogfathers? [Santa Clauses]

Death: YES. AS PRACTICE, YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

Susan: So we can believe the big ones?

Death: YES. JUSTICE, MERCY, DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

Susan: They're not the same at all.

Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET, YOU TRY TO ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD. AS IF THERE IS SOME, SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE, BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

Susan: But people have got to believe that, or what's the point?

Death: YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?

-- Hogfather by Terry Pratchett

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:19 am
by plwk
Does the above apply to the Buddhadasa wallas? :tongue:

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:23 am
by tiltbillings
plwk wrote:Does the above apply to the Buddhadasa wallas? :tongue:
The real question might be a bit different than that.

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:46 am
by Kim OHara
Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:58 am
by Ben
I actually heard an interview with him on public radio a few months ago on the subject of his alzheimers (I think).
It was one of the more intelligent interviews I have heard for awhile, and very insightful.
kind regards

Ben

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:22 pm
by m0rl0ck
Kim O'Hara wrote:Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim
That was fun ty for the link. I havent read any Terry Prachett in years.

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:39 pm
by tiltbillings
m0rl0ck wrote:
Kim O'Hara wrote:Don't let his chosen genre fool you - Terry Pratchett asks some good questions. Those who don't know his work might like to try a tiny sample of it: http://www.au.lspace.org/books/dawcn/dawcn-english.html.

:namaste:
Kim
That was fun ty for the link. I havent read any Terry Prachett in years.
Actually, it might be interesting to consider the OP in terms of the Buddha's teachings.

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:44 pm
by kirk5a
tiltbillings wrote:Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:47 am
by chownah
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
chownah

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:54 am
by alan
Tilt: Pratchett is a clever guy. I've enjoyed his books. But.. I don't get what you are trying to say here.

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:11 am
by kirk5a
chownah wrote:
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Death: YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER, AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE, AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY.

I don't think the Buddha defined mercy, let's say "compassion" in terms of atoms and molecules. I'd ask Mr. "Death" here how it is he came to the view that if something cannot be shown as an atom or molecule, it is fictional.

"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
chownah

And what point are you making by referring to this teaching? That the Buddha was a materialist? That compassion is a fiction (lie) according to the Buddha also? Or what.

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:05 am
by tiltbillings
kirk5a wrote: And what point are you making by referring to this teaching? That the Buddha was a materialist? That compassion is a fiction (lie) according to the Buddha also? Or what.
Where is compassion?

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:15 am
by kirk5a
tiltbillings wrote:Where is compassion?
Are you asking me to describe it in terms of "the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas." ?

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:21 am
by tiltbillings
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Where is compassion?
Are you asking me to describe it in terms of "the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas." ?
The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:26 am
by kirk5a
tiltbillings wrote:The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?
I don't accept the terms of Death's reduction. Ever helped anyone in need?

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:30 am
by tiltbillings
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The question is, in term of what Death said, where is compassion or wisdom?
I don't accept the terms of Death's reduction. Ever helped anyone in need?
So, you are saying compassion is an existing thing out there somewhere?

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:35 am
by kirk5a
tiltbillings wrote:So, you are saying compassion is an existing thing out there somewhere?
I'm asking whether you have compassion or not. If not, that's interesting. If yes, "where is it"?

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:38 am
by tiltbillings
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:So, you are saying compassion is an existing thing out there somewhere?
I'm asking whether you have compassion or not. If not, that's interesting. If yes, "where is it"?
Actually, it was and is my question to you, where is it?

Maybe Death's statement, 'YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?' is to the point.

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:46 am
by kirk5a
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, it was and is my question to you, where is it?

Maybe Death's statement, 'YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?' is to the point.
To... what point? Compassion is an untruth that we need to "believe in" in order for it to be?

As far as "where" it is - I would say it is an aspect of the mind. Do you think it is a lie?

Re: little lies, big lies

Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:51 am
by tiltbillings
kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Actually, it was and is my question to you, where is it?

Maybe Death's statement, 'YOU NEED TO BELIEVE IN THINGS THAT AREN'T TRUE. HOW ELSE CAN THEY BECOME?' is to the point.
To... what point? Compassion is an untruth that we need to "believe in" in order for it to be?

As far as "where" it is - I would say it is an aspect of the mind. Do you think it is a lie?
It is a lie that it is a self-existant thingie that is part ofthe universe, and it "becomes" because we bring it about.