little lies, big lies

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dan74
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by Dan74 » Wed Aug 17, 2011 4:53 am

Not sure who you are addressing, alan. I don't recall anyone advocating emotional approach over a rational one here.

By emotion, I mean all feelings, ie what is not purely memories, sensations, logical considerations or processes. Not really a proper definition, I know, but I think we sort of know what is being talked about here.
alan wrote:Of course, we always "like" what we choose. But to extrapolate from this and assume that all choices are based upon "Emotion" is a tautology.
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Tautology.html
Not all choices, some choices are very rational, of course. I guess in order to see the extent to which emotions are in charge, we first have to make peace with them, accept them, respect them, "bring them back into the fold."

Some of the vehemently rational characters whom I've know refuse to do that and continue behaving in deeply irrational ways while being totally oblivious to this fact.
_/|\_

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tiltbillings
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by tiltbillings » Wed Aug 17, 2011 5:03 am

Geez, Alan, you keep missing the point. As long as you are unawakened, much of what you do is going to be colored to degree by non-rational motivation.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

alan
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by alan » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:43 am

That makes sense. I wonder what is the best way to understand non-rational motivation.

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Prasadachitta
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by Prasadachitta » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:37 am

alan wrote:That makes sense. I wonder what is the best way to understand non-rational motivation.
Aware of feeling I breath in

Aware or feeling I breath out

Aware of feeling as mind conditioning I breath in

Aware of feeling as mind conditioning I breath out

:smile:
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

alan
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by alan » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:40 am

Nice, but not really an answer to my question.

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Prasadachitta
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by Prasadachitta » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:01 am

alan wrote:Nice, but not really an answer to my question.
The way I see it understanding comes from observation. Kind of like a case study.

Metta

Prasadachitta
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

alan
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by alan » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:26 am

A case study is more than just observation. There has to be a hypothesis, an experiment, and a scientific survey of the results. Observing the breath, valuable that it may be, does not tell me anything about how to understand my non-rational motivations.

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Prasadachitta
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by Prasadachitta » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:54 am

alan wrote:A case study is more than just observation. There has to be a hypothesis, an experiment, and a scientific survey of the results. Observing the breath, valuable that it may be, does not tell me anything about how to understand my non-rational motivations.
I was using case study as an analogy. Im not really that familiar with case studies but I don't think there has to be a hypothesis only the desire to understand more fully. Also I dont think there is necessarily an experiment per se in a case study. Also I did not say merely observe the breath. I made specific mention of feelings and how they condition ones attitude. This is how I understand the last half of the second tetrad of Anapanasati or Mindfulness with breathing.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

chownah
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by chownah » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:13 am

The term "case study" is used in two different ways...the way alan is refering to it is sometimes called a "case study research" which involve the hyposthesis etc...all the things that alan mentioned....the way that Prasadachitta is using it has the meaning of one study of one unit of an occurance of a phenomenon; its sort of like a report of observations or description of what happened. The two ideas sometimes are used together like this: Case study research about poverty and its associated health problems in Orange County California might involve interviewing 10 poverty stricken residents of the county every year for 10 years and then doing all the data and analysis etc......there would be 10 case studies; one for each of the residents.....and then there would be the anlaysis and etc.....wikipedia has an article on "case study".
chownah

alan
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Re: little lies, big lies

Post by alan » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:40 am

How best to understand non-rational motivations? I don't know. Does anyone have an idea about this issue-- besides generic answers such as watching the breath?
What makes us like what we like? Can we change what we like?
If we can't change what we like, how is the Dhamma path attained?

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