the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

DNS wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 3:25 pm
Bill Maher had a good take on the virus and wet markets and vegetarianism last night on Real Time:

I’ve been watching that series on Netflix. Bizarre, especially that guy with the hindu sex cult :shock:
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

Pascal2
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Pascal2 »

Through meditation we can extend and deepen our compassion until it transforms into the mind of great compassion – the wish to protect all living beings without exception from their suffering.

http://www.aboutdharma.org/what-is-compassion.php/

Pascal2
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Re: Is fishing breaking the precept?

Post by Pascal2 »

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:18 pm
By eating meat one would not be causing harm in any sense of "cause" that is deemed morally relevant in the Buddha's teaching.
Are you suggesting that the Buddha himself was not a compassionate being?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:59 pm
Through meditation we can extend and deepen our compassion until it transforms into the mind of great compassion – the wish to protect all living beings without exception from their suffering.

http://www.aboutdharma.org/what-is-compassion.php/
Mahāyāna teachings are irrelevant here. If you prefer Mahāyāna there is a sister site, DharmaWheel, which you can link to at the bottom of the main page.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

Pascal2
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Pascal2 »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:23 pm
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:59 pm
Through meditation we can extend and deepen our compassion until it transforms into the mind of great compassion – the wish to protect all living beings without exception from their suffering.

http://www.aboutdharma.org/what-is-compassion.php/
Mahāyāna teachings are irrelevant here. If you prefer Mahāyāna there is a sister site, DharmaWheel, which you can link to at the bottom of the main page.
I thought compassion was neither Mahayana or Teravada but..
Here is something I have found

He abides with his heart imbued with compassion... gladness... equanimity extending over the all-encompassing world.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... .html#prac

II. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#basic

Compassion develops out of our spontaneous feelings of sympathy with others.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_08.html

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:34 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:23 pm
Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:59 pm
Through meditation we can extend and deepen our compassion until it transforms into the mind of great compassion – the wish to protect all living beings without exception from their suffering.

http://www.aboutdharma.org/what-is-compassion.php/
Mahāyāna teachings are irrelevant here. If you prefer Mahāyāna there is a sister site, DharmaWheel, which you can link to at the bottom of the main page.
I thought compassion was neither Mahayana or Teravada but..
Here is something I have found

He abides with his heart imbued with compassion... gladness... equanimity extending over the all-encompassing world.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... .html#prac

II. Here, monks, a disciple dwells pervading one direction with his heart filled with compassion, likewise the second, the third and the fourth direction; so above, below and around; he dwells pervading the entire world everywhere and equally with his heart filled with compassion, abundant, grown great, measureless, free from enmity and free from distress.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#basic

Compassion develops out of our spontaneous feelings of sympathy with others.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... ay_08.html
The understanding of the role of compassion and what it entails is different between Theravada and Mahāyāna. For example, becoming a Bodhisattva and staying in samsara until all beings are liberated (Mahāyāna) vs personal liberation from samsara as an Arahant (Theravada).
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

Pascal2
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Pascal2 »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:39 pm
The understanding of the role of compassion and what it entails is different between Theravada and Mahāyāna. For example, becoming a Bodhisattva and staying in samsara until all beings are liberated (Mahāyāna) vs personal liberation from samsara as an Arahant (Theravada).
As discussed before, "compassion" is an English word, NOT a Pali word and it has a precise meaning as written in English dictionaries.
If you dont believe the meaning of the English word "compassion" fits the meaning you think the original text has, you should promote a different translation of the texts.
Using another word instead, we can call it "CompassionA" or "COmpassionX".

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:51 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 5:39 pm
The understanding of the role of compassion and what it entails is different between Theravada and Mahāyāna. For example, becoming a Bodhisattva and staying in samsara until all beings are liberated (Mahāyāna) vs personal liberation from samsara as an Arahant (Theravada).
As discussed before, "compassion" is an English word, NOT a Pali word and it has a precise meaning as written in English dictionaries.
If you dont believe the meaning of the English word "compassion" fits the meaning you think the original text has, you should promote a different translation of the texts.
Using another word instead, we can call it "CompassionA" or "COmpassionX".
Ok, so how would you translate karuna?
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

Pascal2
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Pascal2 »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:02 pm
Ok, so how would you translate karuna?
I have no idea
As repeatedly said, I dont know Pali and I have never claimed to know Pali

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:06 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:02 pm
Ok, so how would you translate karuna?
I have no idea
As repeatedly said, I dont know Pali and I have never claimed to know Pali
So, if we go by the Pali dictionary it’s translated as compassion. It means the Buddha defined compassion in his own terms, and not according to western dictionary definitions 🤷🏻‍♂️
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

Pascal2
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Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:48 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Pascal2 »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:11 pm
So, if we go by the Pali dictionary it’s translated as compassion. It means the Buddha defined compassion in his own terms, and not according to western dictionary definitions 🤷🏻‍♂️
Pali dictionaries are used for Pali words. "Compassion" isnt a Pali word.
The Buddha did not even use the word "compassion" as He did not know English. I assume.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pascal2 wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:37 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 6:11 pm
So, if we go by the Pali dictionary it’s translated as compassion. It means the Buddha defined compassion in his own terms, and not according to western dictionary definitions 🤷🏻‍♂️
Pali dictionaries are used for Pali words. "Compassion" isnt a Pali word.
The Buddha did not even use the word "compassion" as He did not know English. I assume.
The word we have in Pali means sympathy for the suffering of self and others and the wish for self and others to be free from suffering, and so not to be cruel to others. It includes all beings, including oneself, hence why it’s boundless. If it didn’t also apply to oneself it wouldn’t be boundless. So, it’s compassion for others and oneself. This is how karuna was understood by Buddhists in the time of the Buddha. It’s compassion extended to oneself and not just others. Karuna means compassion.

Of course if you want to restrict compassion to just meaning concern for others you can, but then you need to provide a translation of karuna based on it meaning the above. Compassion is the best translation. I see no other way of expressing the idea in English. If we don’t translate karuna as compassion then we are in the peculiar situation of saying the Buddha didn’t teach compassion. He just taught sympathy for the suffering of self and others and the wish for self and others to be free from suffering, and so not to be cruel to others.

Karuna: sympathy for the suffering of self and others and the wish for self and others to be free from suffering, and so not to be cruel to others.

English Translation: ?

Metta

:)
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

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Dhammanando
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Re: Is fishing breaking the precept?

Post by Dhammanando »

Pascal2 wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:18 pm
By eating meat one would not be causing harm in any sense of "cause" that is deemed morally relevant in the Buddha's teaching.
Are you suggesting that the Buddha himself was not a compassionate being?
No.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

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seeker242
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Re: Is fishing breaking the precept?

Post by seeker242 »

binocular wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 11:58 am
seeker242 wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 10:35 pm
Does that make it ok for human beings to subject them to additional unnecessary suffering? Does that mean their suffering doesn’t matter?
I find that the Jain line of reasoning only leads to either heightened neuroticism, or new heights of hypocrisy.
Heightened neuroticism because it is impossible to entirely avoid killing and harming beings. New heights of hypocrisy because one has to draw the line somewhere and put one's own life above the lives of others.
What makes you think that caring about animal suffering is "the jain line of reasoning"? What makes you think that not causing unnecessary harm is "the jain line of reasoning"?

:shrug:

Pascal2
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Pascal2 »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 7:04 pm
Karuna: sympathy for the suffering of self and others and the wish for self and others to be free from suffering, and so not to be cruel to others.
And this is why you eat animals.
As you want them to be freed from suffering? ;)

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