the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:27 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:15 pm
chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:12 pm
Consider: If wild animals is the best way to go for animals then is it better for people to live like wild animals?....why not let nature take its course (as you say) when it come to humans?
chownah
Animals are in a woeful state (according to Buddhism). Humans are higher than that. According to Buddhism it is wrong to kill or cause to kill. Does meat eating, contribute to killing? That is the debate in this thread and there are various views on this matter.
I'm not going to second guess what the buddha said. It looks like you are moralizing now (isn't what you say an expression of morality which is seen as a vital part of what the buddha taught?).....but I am not. I am just stating what I can to the best of my abilities determine to be facts I'll leave the moralizing to others.

Can humans (perhaps through metta) make a difference in the woeful state of animals? Does providing food and shelter help to make a difference in the woeful state of animals? (Please note that I am not moralizing here....not pointing to anything being right or wrong).
chownah

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:59 am

A "lifestyle" of being tortured on a farm is better than a wild animal?? That's interesting...it's also false. Furthermore, wild animals on the savanna, and what happens with them, is completely and totally irrelevant to how humans abuse and kill animals. The comparison as done above is not appropriate. It is based on a complete ignorance of what is ethical and unethical.

Dinsdale
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Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:28 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:49 pm
Dinsdale wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:52 am
DNS wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:56 am
Oh, okay, so your point might be (?) that domesticated animals have a lower infant mortality rate and therefore a better "quality" of life? Domestic animals receive more care from their owners either due to affection (as in pets) or because of their economic value (farm animals) and receive visits from a veterinarian as needed and therefore tend to have longer lives than their counterparts in the wild.

But from a vegetarian perspective, there would still be a killer, someone killing the animal for food, as part of the meat industry chain of events; someone placing an order, store purchasing more meat, slaughterhouse killing more, requesting more animals from the cattle farmer.
Looks like another :strawman: to me.

"We look after animals till they are fat enough, then kill them." :shrug:
Hey! I'm on your side. :tongue: I was just trying to figure out what chownah's "point" was, I was not agreeing with him.
Sure, I realised that. I'm just bemused by the succession of lame arguments attempting to justify the buying of meat.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
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Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:41 am

chownah wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 4:27 pm
I'm not going to second guess what the buddha said. It looks like you are moralizing now (isn't what you say an expression of morality which is seen as a vital part of what the buddha taught?).....but I am not. I am just stating what I can to the best of my abilities determine to be facts I'll leave the moralizing to others.
Morality and ethics are central to the discussion. :shrug:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka » Sun Oct 21, 2018 10:35 am

seeker242 wrote:
Sun Oct 21, 2018 12:59 am
A "lifestyle" of being tortured on a farm is better than a wild animal?? That's interesting...it's also false. Furthermore, wild animals on the savanna, and what happens with them, is completely and totally irrelevant to how humans abuse and kill animals. The comparison as done above is not appropriate. It is based on a complete ignorance of what is ethical and unethical.

:goodpost:

I once lived in the country next door to a farm. The way that the animals were treated was dreadful.

.

SarathW
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MN 55 With Jivaka - re - meat eating

Post by SarathW » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:03 am

“Jīvaka, those who say this do not repeat what I have said. They misrepresent me with what is false and untrue. For three reasons I say ‘meat may not be eaten’: it’s seen, heard, or suspected. These are three reasons I say ‘meat may not be eaten’. For three reasons I say ‘meat may be eaten’: it’s not seen, heard, or suspected. These are three reasons I say ‘meat may be eaten’.
We have many discussion about meat eating. This is the sutta directly related to meat eating.

https://suttacentral.net/mn55/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Srilankaputra
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: MN 55 With Jivaka - re - meat eating

Post by Srilankaputra » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:32 am

Genaral Siha buys meat after becoming a sotapanna ;
Then the Blessed One gave Sīha the general a progressive discourse, that is, a talk on giving, virtuous behavior, and heaven; he revealed the danger, degradation, and defilement of sensual pleasures and the benefit of renunciation. When the Blessed One knew that Sīha’s mind was pliant, softened, rid of hindrances, uplifted, and confident, he revealed that Dhamma teaching special to the Buddhas: suffering, its origin, its cessation, and the path. Then, just as a clean cloth rid of dark spots would readily absorb dye, so too, while Sīha the general sat in that same seat, there arose in him the dust-free, stainless Dhamma-eye: ‘Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.’ Sīha the general became one who had seen the Dhamma, attained the Dhamma, understood the Dhamma, fathomed the Dhamma, crossed over doubt, gotten rid of bewilderment, attained self-confidence, and become independent of others in the teaching of the Teacher. He then said to the Blessed One:

“Bhante, please let the Blessed One together with the Saṅgha of bhikkhus accept tomorrow’s meal from me.”

The Blessed One consented by silence. Having understood that the Blessed One had consented, Sīha rose from his seat, paid homage to the Blessed One, circumambulated him keeping the right side toward him, and departed. Then Sīha addressed a man: “Go, good man, find some meat ready for sale.”

Then, when the night had passed, Sīha the general had various kinds of excellent foods prepared in his own residence, after which he had the time announced to the Blessed One: “It is time, Bhante, the meal is ready.”

https://suttacentral.net/an8.12/en/bodhi
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

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