the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Kim OHara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Kim OHara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:28 am


Ruud
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Re: The spirit of five precepts

Post by Ruud » Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:40 am

jmccoy wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 9:55 pm

If practicing the five precepts isn't a minimal lay Buddhist criterion then what the heck is?
dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 11:12 pm
Who knows. Maybe taking refuge in the triple gem would be the most basic. I am only stating they aren't compulsory.
Indeed. Like I quoted before:
“In what way, Bhante, is one a lay follower?”

“When, Mahānāma, one has gone for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha, in that way one is a lay follower.”

“In what way, Bhante, is a lay follower virtuous?”

“When, Mahānāma, a lay follower abstains from the destruction of life, from taking what is not given, from sexual misconduct, from false speech, and from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness, in that way a lay follower is virtuous.”
jmccoy wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:48 am
What does it mean to take refuge without practicing sila?
A good question. But I think the point here is to show that precepts are voluntary not compulsory. They are not commandments, but a training one takes on.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

jmccoy
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Re: The spirit of five precepts

Post by jmccoy » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:39 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:16 am
it is said often in Asia that what makes one a Buddhist as an identity (as opposed to a non-Buddhist) is the 3 refuges, but what makes you a devoted Buddhist is the precepts. Also many Buddhists in asia would mention trying to master the paramis is what they focus on, not the precepts.
Hmm, ok. One can follow the precepts and also not identify as Buddhist. It is strange to me that there would be a difference between a devoted Buddhist and a non-devoted Buddhist.
Is the mastery of sīla pāramī a separate or distinct issue from mastery of pancasila?
Ruud wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:40 am

A good question. But I think the point here is to show that precepts are voluntary not compulsory. They are not commandments, but a training one takes on.
Fair enough, but then would this also mean that attaining arhantship and escaping samsara isn't the compulsory goal or point of practicing Buddhism? Up to this point I have always considered the accumulation of virtue to be an essential aspect of Dhamma.
Sorry, I'm not trying to get off topic, it's just that this has been running around in my mind for quite a while and this was the first "well timed / well placed" thread for me to jump in on the dialogue about.

Ruud
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Re: The spirit of five precepts

Post by Ruud » Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:13 am

jmccoy wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:39 am
...
The ultimate goal of the Buddha-Dhamma is indeed the end of suffering, which is reached at arahantship. But before that it reached, many steps on the path are taken. Virtue is an important step on this path, and indeed usually one presented as very early and basic to the practice. But many intermediate goals can be taken on the way. And the Buddha adjusted his teachings based on the inclinations and abilities of his audience.
He saw Suppabuddha the leper sitting in the assembly, and on seeing him the thought occurred to him, "This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path.
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn ... .than.html
So in that step-by-step progression, it would be possible to take refuge because one recognizes that the path the Buddha points out ultimately is the right one and because one has the aspiration to eventually follow it all the way to its end. And practicing generosity can be a first step in that direction. This practice is not a very fast or energetic one, but it moves the practitioner in the right direction. And then, when one has enough confidence, can one out of ones own volition take on the next step of for example virtue.

This is not to say that the Buddha didn’t urge all disciples to keep the precepts and praise those who did. But he never imposed them. They were always kept out of the disciples own volition.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

Ruud
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Re: The spirit of five precepts

Post by Ruud » Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:07 am

By the way, I feel that the above idea of gradual path can also be applied to the question in the OP. Regarding the interpretation of precepts, one can initially take a simple and basic interpretation, like the first precept means to not kill by oneself. And then further down the path, based on our further interpretation that making others kill is also included in the precept, we can choose to embrace for example vegetarianism. In that way we are slowly, over time, developing our path factor of right action and our sila-parami.
Dry up what pertains to the past,
do not take up anything to come later.
If you will not grasp in the middle,
you will live at peace.
—Snp.5.11,v.1099 (tr. Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi)

Whatever is will be was. —Ven. Ñānamoli, A Thinkers Notebook, §221

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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Jan 06, 2018 4:56 pm

Kim OHara wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 1:28 am
Another reason to avoid meat - https://secure.avaaz.org/campaign/en/meatless_day_13/

:coffee:
Kim
:thumbsup: And dairy!

jmccoy
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Re: The spirit of five precepts

Post by jmccoy » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:28 pm

Ruud wrote:
Sat Jan 06, 2018 9:13 am
So in that step-by-step progression, it would be possible to take refuge because one recognizes that the path the Buddha points out ultimately is the right one and because one has the aspiration to eventually follow it all the way to its end. And practicing generosity can be a first step in that direction. This practice is not a very fast or energetic one, but it moves the practitioner in the right direction. And then, when one has enough confidence, can one out of ones own volition take on the next step of for example virtue.
It seems like you just diagnosed the very phase I'm in. Thanks! LOL

Robinio
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Robinio » Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:12 pm

Hey,

I found this forum while looking into vegetarian protein requirements. It seems that the matter has moved on from calculating daily protein requirements, but I thought I would at least post this calculator, as seems to be more accurate than the ones which have been posted on this forum, in case anyone needs it.

https://www.fitness-savvy.co.uk/protein ... in-advice/

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rightviewftw
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:01 pm


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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:45 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:01 pm
An interesting read What If You Ate Only One Type of Food?
Many thanks - that is informative. I sometimes think about the types of food required if I had to massively simplify my diet. What if I had to choose only, say, ten foodstuffs to eat from here on?

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:22 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:01 pm
An interesting read What If You Ate Only One Type of Food?
Many thanks - that is informative. I sometimes think about the types of food required if I had to massively simplify my diet. What if I had to choose only, say, ten foodstuffs to eat from here on?
It's informative but also contains some inaccurate information. Specifically the part about protein where it says "No single vegetable or legume has all nine essential amino acids". That's simply wrong. The reason why Quinoa, Buckwheat and Soy are called "complete protein" is precisely because they do have all 9 amino acids in sufficient quantities. Many other plant foods have all 9 as well. Potatoes for example, also has all 9 essential amino acids. It just has low levels of leucine so it is not considered "complete". However, if you were to eat 2,000 calories of potatoes and nothing but potatoes, you would be eating so much potatoes that you would still get enough of all 9 amino acids.

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rightviewftw
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:52 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:45 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:01 pm
An interesting read What If You Ate Only One Type of Food?
Many thanks - that is informative. I sometimes think about the types of food required if I had to massively simplify my diet. What if I had to choose only, say, ten foodstuffs to eat from here on?
Perhaps split the thread if people are interested.

I would like to explore this and i have adjusted my diet to at least include some vitamin C. I have been avoiding eating meat because it takes long time to digest and i imagine it takes quite a lot of energy to produce the acid and therefore i assume it is not very efficient, there is a difference in meat tho and i eat some tuna (skipjack) and it seems ok altough it is the food i can "feel" the most after having eaten it so i will look for alternatives. If i bothered to cook id eat potatoes etc but i like to just mix everything in a bowl, pour on some olive oil and eating, peeling a banana and opening cans is enough cooking for me:P
Image
if someone bothers to check the accuracy of the data go ahead, i take it as an aproximation based on incomplete data so fwiw

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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Apr 10, 2018 11:20 am

seeker242 wrote:
Tue Apr 10, 2018 9:22 am


It's informative but also contains some inaccurate information. Specifically the part about protein where it says "No single vegetable or legume has all nine essential amino acids". That's simply wrong. The reason why Quinoa, Buckwheat and Soy are called "complete protein" is precisely because they do have all 9 amino acids in sufficient quantities. Many other plant foods have all 9 as well. Potatoes for example, also has all 9 essential amino acids. It just has low levels of leucine so it is not considered "complete". However, if you were to eat 2,000 calories of potatoes and nothing but potatoes, you would be eating so much potatoes that you would still get enough of all 9 amino acids.
Thanks. One thing I have noticed over nearly fifty years of vegetarianism and nearly forty years of veganism is that the "official" view of this has changed. There used to be no "complete" veg. proteins, but now apparently there are!

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Apr 16, 2018 3:38 am

hi, i was wondering if anyone could let me know where this portion comes from. i assume its not a fake text but it is either not sourced or confusingly sourced http://learning.pariyatti.org/mod/page/view.php?id=755
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robertk
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Vegetarians and depression

Post by robertk » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:04 am

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 2716323916
A large survey of Australian women in their 20's, found a significant increase in elevated depressive symptoms among vegetarians compared to non-vegetarians (22% v. 15%) (Baines et al., 2007). Among 1046 Australian women, lower red meat consumption was associated with nearly a doubling of risk for major depressive and anxiety disorders (Jacka et al., 2012). Among Norwegian students, nearly twice as many men and one third more women with low meat consumption reported having been depressed, after adjustment (Larsson et al., 2002). In a representative sample, depression was more common among completely and predominantly vegetarian German adults, but adoption of vegetarian diets followed the onset of mental illnesses (Michalak et al., 2012). In Minnesota, adolescent vegetarians were more likely to have eating disorders and to have contemplated and attempted suicide (Perry et al., 2001) and Turkish adolescent vegetarians had higher social and physique anxiety scores (Bas et al., 2005). In contrast, a small survey of Seventh Day Adventist adults found no increased risk of depression or anxiety among vegetarians who excluded fish (Beezhold et al., 2010).

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