the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
chownah
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by chownah »

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:05 pm
Anyone?
You are asking about animal husbandry. Go read up on animal husbandry and it will teach you how fast animals can be raised. It is off topic here in this thread. Maybe you should post in the great vegetarian debate thread....or start a topic to ask this question....but....really.....just go read about animal husbandry and it will tell you.
chownah

SarathW
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by SarathW »

I'm just wondering, does anyone know how the meat industry can increase (rapidly) the number of livestock?
By battery farming.

https://www.alv.org.au/justice/
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

D1W1
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by D1W1 »

Thanks guys for the reply
SarathW wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 9:23 am
I'm just wondering, does anyone know how the meat industry can increase (rapidly) the number of livestock?
By battery farming.

https://www.alv.org.au/justice/

I used to be a vegetarian and think to become one again but talking about supply and demand, does a vegetarian really make a difference? I think their own individual meat consumption won’t make a difference compared with the scales of production decisions that meat companies make, human population grows much faster and bigger in quantity compare to the growth of vegetarian/vegan population. So how can a vegetarian really make a difference?

SarathW
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by SarathW »

So how can a vegetarian really make a difference?
Good question.
I think India is the biggest meat exporter where majority of the population is vegetarians.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular »

D1W1 wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 10:26 am
So how can a vegetarian really make a difference?
By increasing the number of vegetarians.
Say, 3 billion vegetarians surely would make a difference.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

SarathW
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by SarathW »

Say, 3 billion vegetarians surely would make a difference.
Top
Problem is not that simple.
Animal skin fetches more money than the meat content.
Animals are raised not only for meat consumption.
It does not mean we should not be vegetarians.
I consume meat but I enjoy vegetables more than the meat.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

D1W1
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by D1W1 »

To produce protein from grazing beef, cattle are killed. One death delivers (on average, across Australia’s grazing lands) a carcass of about 288 kilograms. This is approximately 68% boneless meat which, at 23% protein equals 45kg of protein per animal killed. This means 2.2 animals killed for each 100kg of useable animal protein produced.

Producing protein from wheat means ploughing pasture land and planting it with seed. Anyone who has sat on a ploughing tractor knows the predatory birds that follow you all day are not there because they have nothing better to do. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year.

However, the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.


Each area of grain production in Australia has a mouse plague on average every four years, with 500-1000 mice per hectare. Poisoning kills at least 80% of the mice.

At least 100 mice are killed per hectare per year (500/4 × 0.8) to grow grain. Average yields are about 1.4 tonnes of wheat/hectare; 13% of the wheat is useable protein. Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

Some of this grain is used to “finish” beef cattle in feed lots (some is food for dairy cattle, pigs and poultry), but it is still the case that many more sentient lives are sacrificed to produce useable protein from grains than from rangelands cattle.

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am
To produce protein from grazing beef, cattle are killed. One death delivers (on average, across Australia’s grazing lands) a carcass of about 288 kilograms. This is approximately 68% boneless meat which, at 23% protein equals 45kg of protein per animal killed. This means 2.2 animals killed for each 100kg of useable animal protein produced.

Producing protein from wheat means ploughing pasture land and planting it with seed. Anyone who has sat on a ploughing tractor knows the predatory birds that follow you all day are not there because they have nothing better to do. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year.

However, the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.


Each area of grain production in Australia has a mouse plague on average every four years, with 500-1000 mice per hectare. Poisoning kills at least 80% of the mice.

At least 100 mice are killed per hectare per year (500/4 × 0.8) to grow grain. Average yields are about 1.4 tonnes of wheat/hectare; 13% of the wheat is useable protein. Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

Some of this grain is used to “finish” beef cattle in feed lots (some is food for dairy cattle, pigs and poultry), but it is still the case that many more sentient lives are sacrificed to produce useable protein from grains than from rangelands cattle.

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
The massive hole in your neat little argument is that cows eat vegetarian food too, 8-10lbs of grain to produce 1lb of meat, so if you feed the people the grain direct you could feed 8-10 people on the food it takes to feed one person with beef, So basically your argument about animals being killed farming grain, you're killing 8-10 times as many animals and the cow as well when you eat meat instead of being vegetarian.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 »

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am

Published figures suggest that, in Australia

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
I don't live in Australia. :smile:

And many of the points made have been debunked.

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... lth-advice

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... i-land-use

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... use-deaths
Last edited by seeker242 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular »

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
I simply don't like the smell and taste of meat, never have.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

binocular
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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular »

SarathW wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:01 am
Say, 3 billion vegetarians surely would make a difference.
Top
Problem is not that simple.
Animal skin fetches more money than the meat content.
Animals are raised not only for meat consumption.
It does not mean we should not be vegetarians.
I consume meat but I enjoy vegetables more than the meat.
Well, apparently, the actual problem is that people want to enjoy numerous luxuries and don't care how much suffering of other beings procuring those luxuries entails.
So the solution would be to minimize or eliminate that desire for luxuries ... which is likely to be difficult.
“One man’s “magic” is another man’s engineering. “Supernatural” is a null word.”
- Robert Heinlein

Spiny Norman
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Spiny Norman »

Quorn sausage with French mustard is tasty. :woohoo:
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D1W1
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Gym and Buddhism

Post by D1W1 »

Hi all,

Some people say eating meat increases killing, other people say a vegetarian/vegan killing more animals as we can see in the "great vegetarian debate". If you are a vegetarian and you eat egg you are supporting the mass killing of 200.000.000ish male chicks. It comes to mind that the best practice is to live in moderation, including eating, eating only for survival whether one is a vegetarian or not.

Ven.Dhammananda says:
People who criticize Buddhists who eat meat do not understand the Buddhist attitude towards food. A living being needs nourishment. We eat to live. As such a human being should supply his body with the food it needs to keep him healthy and to give him energy to work. However, as a result of increasing wealth, more and more people, especially in developed countries, eat simply to satisfy their palates. If one craves after any kind of food, or kills to satisfy his greed for meat, this is wrong. But if one eats without greed and without directly being involved in the act of killing but merely to sustain the physical body, he is practising self restraint.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm
I'm wondering does this mean some exercises/sports are not compatible with Buddhist practice? For example, if you do gym, you need a certain amount of protein intake, I think more or less that is not eating in moderation. Can you practice Buddhism and live your lay life happily at the same time? Thank you in advance.

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cappuccino
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by cappuccino »

Store meat is not dangerous to eat, in terms of karma.
Since it's already there & not for you in particular.

Your conscience is another matter.

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DNS
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by DNS »

D1W1 wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:43 am
I'm wondering does this mean some exercises/sports are not compatible with Buddhist practice? For example, if you do gym, you need a certain amount of protein intake, I think more or less that is not eating in moderation. Can you practice Buddhism and live your lay life happily at the same time? Thank you in advance.
Unless you are a world class athlete, you don't need that much more food, even if you do vigorous exercise. You might need to increase your food amount just a little, which is fine, imo.

When he was training, I heard that Michael Phelps ate about 10,000 calories per day and burned it with his 6+ hours of swimming laps per day. That is an extreme example, where most of us don't do any where near that much exercise.

In general, if you're not obese and at or fairly close to your ideal weight, then you are doing fine in regard to eating in moderation.

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