the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:33 pm

Mkoll wrote: B12 is easy, just take a supplement.
I take a multivitamin everyday that includes 100% daily value of B12.

When it comes to supplements, however, is the B12 absorbed by the body as well as the B12 found in dairy products?
Mkoll wrote: Following the restrictions you've set for yourself long-term is.
Since the Buddha, as far as I know, never taught anything against consuming eggs and dairy products, I don't feel the need to be that restrictive.

Also, egg whites and non-fat dairy products are not nearly as bad for human health as meat is, and they are a good source of nutrition as well.
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Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:07 pm

Does anyone here eat avocados? Are they a healthy source of dietary fat? I realize that they are high in fat content, but I've cut fat almost entirely from my diet.
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Mkoll
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Mkoll » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:40 pm

Santi253 wrote:
Mkoll wrote: B12 is easy, just take a supplement.
I take a multivitamin everyday that includes 100% daily value of B12.

When it comes to supplements, however, is the B12 absorbed by the body as well as the B12 found in dairy products?
Mkoll wrote: Following the restrictions you've set for yourself long-term is.
Since the Buddha, as far as I know, never taught anything against consuming eggs and dairy products, I don't feel the need to be that restrictive.

Also, egg whites and non-fat dairy products are not nearly as bad for human health as meat is, and they are a good source of nutrition as well.
Not sure if it's absorbed as efficiently, but it's definitely absorbed.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:52 am

It's interesting that, other than fish, all the foods on this list are vegetarian:

11 Foods To Eat If You're Constantly Hungry That Are Healthy & Filling
https://www.bustle.com/articles/171601- ... hy-filling

One of the biggest myths about vegetarianism is that vegetarian foods are unsatisfying.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 5:18 pm

The available science suggests that plant fats are healthier than animal fats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKYBUcGmwj8

After about a month of strictly limiting the fat in my diet, I am adding back fat with whole plant foods like nuts and avocados, rather than from animal fats and extracted vegetable oils.

This article shows that average fat intake of vegans is about the same as non-vegans, yet their cholesterol levels are much lower:
http://jacknorrisrd.com/percentage-of-fat-in-the-diet/

This suggests to me that I don't need to worry as much as I have so far about limiting plant fats in my diet. What matters more is cutting out the animal fats.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:15 pm

I have decided that, as long as I know that I am eating healthy plant-based foods, I am not going to worry about short-term weight loss.

I am on a plant-based diet for long-term health, rather than short-term weight loss, for some of the following reasons:
For those who can improve their health through weight loss and wish to do so, I have no problem with providing reasonable guidelines based on vegan eating patterns. But for those who have been weight cycling for years and have not been able to maintain their desired weight, I agree that a shift in perspective toward healthy habits—with or without weight loss—can prevent damaging behaviors and outcomes.

Because the truth is that we don’t really know why long term weight management is harder for some than others. It could be an inherited “thrifty gene,” that favors fat deposits, or differences in brain circuitry regarding feelings of “reward,” from eating or any of a number of other explanations that are topics of research right now.

There’s a vegan issue here, too, which I mentioned briefly in my last article and want to expand on. I’ve had quite a number of people tell me that they feel alienated from the vegan community for a number of reasons; one of those reasons is that they don’t feel welcome or like they “fit” in the vegan community because they are not models of vegan health perfection.

But this is not a problem of fat vegans. The problem lies with those who promote veganism as a weight loss diet. Although it’s been great to see so much focus on veganism in the media lately—specifically on Oprah and Martha Stewart—I’ve felt discomfort about promises that going vegan will automatically lead to weight loss.

Going vegan is unlikely to cause weight loss for most people unless they also restrict their food intake in other ways. And even embracing some of those other restrictions—like avoiding all fats—isn’t a guaranteed weight loss plan. When people don’t achieve their desired weight on a vegan diet, they are likely to decide that veganism “doesn’t really work,” or that they have somehow “failed” at being vegan.
https://www.theveganrd.com/2011/04/vega ... very-size/
This article debunks some of the half-truths and inconsistencies that are often made by popular plant-based doctors, such as T. Colin Campbell's book The China Study. The point of the article is that, while vegan diets can be healthy, these doctors too often over-sell the health benefits of a vegan diet:
https://www.vegan.com/posts/vegan-dieti ... he-health/

For example, popular vegan doctors often claim that increased dairy intake results in higher rates of hip fracture, while ignoring other possible variables:
Among nutrition experts, these kinds of comparisons carry almost no weight. This is because there are so many confounding factors that affect the comparisons. For example, countries with high dairy consumption also tend to have icier winters. This significantly increases risk of falling, which in turn increases risk of a hip fracture. In fact, the article that What the Health cites to support the dairy connection to hip fracture doesn’t even mention dairy. It says that the factors responsible for the differences in fracture rates are “population demographics (with more elderly living in countries with higher incidence rates) and the influence of ethnicity, latitude, and environmental factors.”
https://www.vegan.com/posts/vegan-dieti ... he-health/
Studies show that vegans actually have higher rates of bone fracture than non-vegans:
In the EPIC-Oxford study, vegans had a 30% higher risk for fracture after adjusting for numerous variables like age, smoking, alcohol consumption, and physical activity. After adjusting for calcium intake, however, there was no difference in fracture rates. Vegans who got enough calcium were no more likely to break a bone than milk-drinkers (13).
https://www.theveganrd.com/2014/11/diet ... ne-health/
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Santi253
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by Santi253 » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:31 pm

cjmacie wrote: His thing is basically "plant-based", but he's not religious about that. He's also not that shy about controversy; is known to go at it vs those who promote extreme stuff like anti-carb, e.g. paleo-diet.
Studies suggest that, for those choosing to go on a keto diet, such as the Atkins or paleo diets, it’s healthier when based on plant foods rather than animal foods:
By now you’ve probably seen the latest research from Harvard University and National University of Singapore showing that different types of low-carbohydrate diets have different effects on health.In this large study of nearly 130,000 people (all health professionals), a low-carb diet that was rich in animal foods was associated with increased risk of mortality. In contrast, a low-carb diet that was higher in plant foods reduced all-cause mortality risk, especially from cardiovascular disease.
https://www.theveganrd.com/2010/09/low- ... or-vegans/
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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 13, 2017 3:38 am

Santi253 wrote: Studies show that vegans actually have higher rates of bone fracture than non-vegans:
I guess that vegans should consider taking a calcium supplement as a standard part of their diet I guess....maybe phosphorus too but I don't even know if there are phosphorus supplements.
chownah

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:24 am

chownah wrote:
Santi253 wrote: Studies show that vegans actually have higher rates of bone fracture than non-vegans:
I guess that vegans should consider taking a calcium supplement as a standard part of their diet I guess....maybe phosphorus too but I don't even know if there are phosphorus supplements.
chownah
That might be true. My only point was that, when vegans claim that drinking milk actually causes bone loss, they are exaggerating the truth, whether deliberately or not.
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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:00 am

Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote:
Santi253 wrote: Studies show that vegans actually have higher rates of bone fracture than non-vegans:
I guess that vegans should consider taking a calcium supplement as a standard part of their diet I guess....maybe phosphorus too but I don't even know if there are phosphorus supplements.
chownah
That might be true. My only point was that, when vegans claim that drinking milk actually causes bone loss, they are exaggerating the truth, whether deliberately or not.
My point is to help people to have good health. It looks like your point is to criticize people....I guess....don't know for sure....
chownah

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:03 am

chownah wrote: My point is to help people to have good health.
Yeah, I agree. I was just pointing out that, sometimes, vegan activists, even doctors who should know better, make bad or unsubtantiated health claims due to an ulterior agenda, whether conscious or otherwise. Here's a vegan dietitian making this same point about exaggerated health claims:
https://www.vegan.com/posts/vegan-dieti ... he-health/
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lostitude
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by lostitude » Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:53 am

samseva wrote:- If you are to eat legumes, prepare them thoroughly (since they can damage your digestive system if not).
Hi samseva, would you mind saying more about this? Thanks.

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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:04 am

lostitude wrote:
samseva wrote:- If you are to eat legumes, prepare them thoroughly (since they can damage your digestive system if not).
Hi samseva, would you mind saying more about this? Thanks.
There are lots of warnings such as this one:
Beans contain a compound called lectin. Lectins are glycoproteins that are present in a wide variety of commonly-consumed plant foods. Some are not harmful, but the lectins found in undercooked and raw beans are toxic.

While you might assume that consuming raw beans would provide better nutrition, you’re wrong. Beans actually have a better nutritional profile after they are cooked. Beans must be boiled to destroy the lectins.
http://wildoats.com/blog-posts/undercoo ... dangerous/

In particular, kidney beans seem to need thorough cooking. This from wikipedia:
Raw kidney beans contain relatively high amounts of phytohemagglutinin, and thus are more toxic than most other bean varieties if not pre-soaked and subsequently heated to the boiling point for at least 10 minutes. The US Food and Drug Administration recommends boiling for 30 minutes to ensure they reach a sufficient temperature long enough to completely destroy the toxin.[3] Cooking at the lower temperature of 80 °C (176 °F), such as in a slow cooker, can increase this danger and raise the toxin concentration up to fivefold.[4] Canned red kidney beans, though, are safe to use immediately

lostitude
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by lostitude » Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:42 am

Sam Vara wrote:
lostitude wrote:
samseva wrote:- If you are to eat legumes, prepare them thoroughly (since they can damage your digestive system if not).
Hi samseva, would you mind saying more about this? Thanks.
There are lots of warnings such as this one:
Beans contain a compound called lectin. Lectins are glycoproteins that are present in a wide variety of commonly-consumed plant foods. Some are not harmful, but the lectins found in undercooked and raw beans are toxic.

While you might assume that consuming raw beans would provide better nutrition, you’re wrong. Beans actually have a better nutritional profile after they are cooked. Beans must be boiled to destroy the lectins.
http://wildoats.com/blog-posts/undercoo ... dangerous/

In particular, kidney beans seem to need thorough cooking. This from wikipedia:
Raw kidney beans contain relatively high amounts of phytohemagglutinin, and thus are more toxic than most other bean varieties if not pre-soaked and subsequently heated to the boiling point for at least 10 minutes. The US Food and Drug Administration recommends boiling for 30 minutes to ensure they reach a sufficient temperature long enough to completely destroy the toxin.[3] Cooking at the lower temperature of 80 °C (176 °F), such as in a slow cooker, can increase this danger and raise the toxin concentration up to fivefold.[4] Canned red kidney beans, though, are safe to use immediately
Thank you, but what I am wondering is, who eats raw legumes ? Are there any recipes simewhere in the world involving raw beans for example ? This is not a rhetorical question.
Thanks.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:23 pm

lostitude wrote:Thank you, but what I am wondering is, who eats raw legumes ? Are there any recipes simewhere in the world involving raw beans for example ? This is not a rhetorical question.
Thanks.
Sure. Peas are legumes, and they are fine eaten raw. Mangetout and sugar snap peas are usually grown for that purpose. I used to eat fine french beans raw (until warned about it) and with no ill effects.

I think the warnings are mainly directed towards those who do not cook beans enough, or who might be tempted to grind raw dried beans and add the flour to meals for the protein content.

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