the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 11:32 am

chownah wrote:The only source of dietary strychnine is plant products and it can cause death.
chownah
Is it the cause of several of the most common diseases in the United States? Most sane people won't eat strychnine for dinner. They instead poison themselves more slowly with animal products. Your tendency to say the opposite of everything I say is childish.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:45 pm

The only source of dietary pesticide residue is human products. It can cause many kinds of cancer leading to a long and painful death.
childish chownah
Last edited by chownah on Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Disciple
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Disciple » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:50 pm

Santi253 wrote:​There was a widely watched vegan Youtuber who recently quit veganism and now instead makes videos of himself binge eating on pizza and burgers and other junk food. He's been gaining substantial weight because of it. I want to avoid a similar fate. I am going vegetarian instead of vegan, because I know I am more likely to follow such a diet.
Channel name?

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:54 pm

Disciple wrote:
Santi253 wrote:​There was a widely watched vegan Youtuber who recently quit veganism and now instead makes videos of himself binge eating on pizza and burgers and other junk food. He's been gaining substantial weight because of it. I want to avoid a similar fate. I am going vegetarian instead of vegan, because I know I am more likely to follow such a diet.
Channel name?
Nikocado Avocado.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 12:58 pm

chownah wrote:The only source of dietary pesticide residue is human products. It can cause many kinds of cancer leading to a long and painful death.
childish chownah
A. That doesn't apply to organic fruits and vegetables.
B. The animal foods you eat are proven to have pesticides and other toxins, due to the animals being exposed to them.
C. Animal products cause far more diet-related illnesses in the United States than fruits and vegetables.

Your insistence on saying the opposite of everything I say, just because you can, is childish.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:27 pm

There are no animal sources for msg.
chownah

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CedarTree
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by CedarTree » Sun Jul 23, 2017 3:29 pm

ieee23 wrote:Garrib,

My own opinion is that the Early Buddhist/Theravada/Historical Buddha's view about meat eating hasn't arrived to us in 2017 as complete. As it is, I don't think it is ethically workable and consistent.

For example, there is this sutta on Wrong Livliehood
Vanijja Sutta: Wrong Livelihood

AN 5.177 PTS: A iii 208

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five?

1. Business in weapons
2. Business in human beings
3.Business in meat
4.Business in intoxicants
5.Business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."
Obviously, you can't have a business without customers. This is what I mean by there being a suspicious incompleteness/consistency on an ethical level. It can't work as it is incomplete, so my opinion is that there is something missing.

The advice against going into a business of intoxicants is consistent and workable as the 5th precept advises against consuming such intoxicants. Again, no customers, no wrong business.
You may be onto something.


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ryanM
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by ryanM » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:02 pm

Something that struck me recently was related to how the Buddha allowed monks to eat meat if it is pure in three aspects. It's peculiar, for me at least, that the Buddha would encourage lay followers to commit negative acts of kamma (cooking/preparing meat) in order to give dana to the monks/nuns. Wouldn't he understand that lay followers are eating, more or less, the same food they offer to monastics?

Surely he would have told lay people not to prepare meat (prepare in the sense of buying and cooking, not killing) if he believed that it would have been unmeritorious for them. Or are we supposed to think that the benefits of giving to monastics is meant to outweigh the negative kamma from preparing meat? That doesn't make sense to me. I think the Buddha was concerned enough with the purity of the laity to inform them on these matters. Bhikkhu Pesala has addressed the topic of "business in X" thoroughly in other occasions.
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ieee23
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by ieee23 » Sun Jul 23, 2017 4:13 pm

CedarTree wrote:
ieee23 wrote:Garrib,

My own opinion is that the Early Buddhist/Theravada/Historical Buddha's view about meat eating hasn't arrived to us in 2017 as complete. As it is, I don't think it is ethically workable and consistent.

For example, there is this sutta on Wrong Livliehood
Vanijja Sutta: Wrong Livelihood

AN 5.177 PTS: A iii 208

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five?

1. Business in weapons
2. Business in human beings
3.Business in meat
4.Business in intoxicants
5.Business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."
Obviously, you can't have a business without customers. This is what I mean by there being a suspicious incompleteness/consistency on an ethical level. It can't work as it is incomplete, so my opinion is that there is something missing.

The advice against going into a business of intoxicants is consistent and workable as the 5th precept advises against consuming such intoxicants. Again, no customers, no wrong business.
You may be onto something.

CedarTree,

I should write this date down. Someone on DW actually agreeing with something I posted instead of locking down to argue until the bitter end, mocking what I wrote, using what I wrote to go off on a tangent, or using what I wrote to split hairs over things that do not matter.

Thank you for the refreshingly different experience :-)
Whatever a bhikkhu frequently thinks and ponders upon, that will become the inclination of his mind. - MN 19

binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Sun Jul 23, 2017 5:20 pm

Santi253 wrote:Your insistence on saying the opposite of everything I say, just because you can, is childish.
You do realize he's not saying the opposite of what you're saying?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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CedarTree
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by CedarTree » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:40 pm

[/quote]
You may be onto something. - CedarTree

CedarTree,

I should write this date down. Someone on DW actually agreeing with something I posted instead of locking down to argue until the bitter end, mocking what I wrote, using what I wrote to go off on a tangent, or using what I wrote to split hairs over things that do not matter.

Thank you for the refreshingly different experience :-)[/quote]

Lol it's all part of my master plan to get you to switch to Zen and practicing in the Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery and Antaiji Tradition ;)

Hah jk I think we all need to support each other a bit and you have touched upon something that I think confuses a lot of people that are both new and practiced in the tradition.

I think sometimes in the west we can't get across that the Suttas are not "Written by God and Inerrant" since we have been raised with a cultural backdrop of that perspective with religious texts.

Instead they are guides to spiritual development.

Sometimes when that is brought up people go off the deep end with the other far thing of thinking "Well then there is no truth, it's all post-modern, no point in even practicing"

Haha it's all pendulum stuff of going way to far in either direction. The Suttas in the Pali Canon are absolutely excellent for training and developing on the path. They also provided a very systematic and defined way of approaching many things but in issues like this there may be some elements missing and or not developed as thoroughly as main points.

Simple stuff :namaste:


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CedarTree
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by CedarTree » Sun Jul 23, 2017 6:41 pm

Lol well I screwed up trying to edit that quote down a bit in size.... Sorry folks obviously I am a noob.


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Dinsdale
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:15 am

ieee23 wrote:Garrib,

My own opinion is that the Early Buddhist/Theravada/Historical Buddha's view about meat eating hasn't arrived to us in 2017 as complete. As it is, I don't think it is ethically workable and consistent.

For example, there is this sutta on Wrong Livliehood
Vanijja Sutta: Wrong Livelihood

AN 5.177 PTS: A iii 208

"Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five?

1. Business in weapons
2. Business in human beings
3.Business in meat
4.Business in intoxicants
5.Business in poison.

"These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in."
Obviously, you can't have a business without customers. This is what I mean by there being a suspicious incompleteness/consistency on an ethical level. It can't work as it is incomplete, so my opinion is that there is something missing.

The advice against going into a business of intoxicants is consistent and workable as the 5th precept advises against consuming such intoxicants. Again, no customers, no wrong business.
Indeed. And as a lay Buddhist I would feel like a hypocrite choosing to buy meat, because I would be expecting somebody else to break the first precept and engage in wrong livelihood.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

binocular
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by binocular » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:15 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:Indeed. And as a lay Buddhist I would feel like a hypocrite choosing to buy meat, because I would be expecting somebody else to break the first precept and engage in wrong livelihood.
Agreed. But there is a formbidable number of those Buddhists who don't think so. I'd like to understand their stance better, simply because it is relatively prominent.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:37 pm

I think its easier to throw ethical logic out the window if you really like to eat meat.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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