the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Goofaholix
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby Goofaholix » Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:15 am

MrLearner wrote:Is it purely something I have made up


Yes.

If you feel physically better then I think that's more than enough.
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

R1111
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby R1111 » Fri Jul 01, 2016 2:50 pm

del
Last edited by R1111 on Sat Jul 09, 2016 12:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.

SarathW
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby SarathW » Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:33 pm

remember even fully enlightened beings eat meat.


Is there a Sutta support for this?


sloth and torpor that can be very good support for meditation


I think it is the other way around.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

denise
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby denise » Fri Jul 01, 2016 11:08 pm

read something a long time ago from Suzuki Roshi....a student of Suzuki Roshi said he had eaten meat and felt bad...Suzuki Roshi replied.."sometimes I eat rice"......
Last edited by denise on Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

R1111
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby R1111 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:13 am

del
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jackson
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby jackson » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:52 pm

robertk wrote:
DC2R wrote:
Perhaps you can look at it in a more generalized way. Feelings like "the gods are with you" probably stem from the good kamma you develop by not eating animals that have been killed. Soon.

The idea that there is good kamma from being vegetarian is wrong view - and wrong view is akusala.

Hi Robert,
Is there scriptural basis for this? Personally speaking I've seen really wholesome results from being vegetarian, and then vegan. My health is better, and my family seems to respect me more because they know how much I care about other beings, not to mention there is a weight off my conscience. Anyway, this is all anecdotal of course, so I'm open to hearing why it would be that there is no good kamma from being vegetarian.
Best wishes,
:smile:
"The heart of the path is quite easy. There’s no need to explain anything at length. Let go of love and hate and let things be. That’s all that I do in my own practice." - Ajahn Chah

Digity
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby Digity » Sat Jul 02, 2016 3:53 pm

No offence, but it does sound a bit self-aggrandizing to think that Gods are on your side just because you eat vegetarian. Eating vegetarian is not that big of a deal.

R1111
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby R1111 » Sat Jul 02, 2016 4:25 pm

del
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ihrjordan
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby ihrjordan » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:07 pm

My instincts tell me that the devas don't care about what you do or don't eat. They primarilly only follow those humans consumate in virtue, samadhi and wisdom but I've heard they generally avoid non-noble humans as humans generally have a stench which is magnified by the devas refined senses.

There's nothing wrong with eating meat in so far as it is nourishing, sweet and warming to the body and helps to build the immune system. It should be avoided in the springtime though as this is the time of melting and liquefaction of the solidity which has accumulated during the winter. So called "allergies" are really just the bodies inability to process a substance from the channels it deems to heavy in the midst of the unctuousness of spring time.

If one abstains from a life of harm, is prudent as to what their senses feed on, and has good will for all living beings then that meat he consumes is as though a sweet nectar which is blameless in the four corners.

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Aloka
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby Aloka » Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:53 pm

MrLearner wrote:Hello everyone,

This is a very strange question I would never have thought of asking previously, because I'm a very scientific person. But anyway since my mother and elder sister have been vegetarians for sometime now, staying with them after a long time recently I have also become a vegetarian. Now I have been a vegetarian for 3 months. You feel light after meals and so much better during these days.


Hello MrLearner,

I've been a vegetarian for most of my life. Its something I wanted to do from when I was a child, because I thought of animals as my friends and didn't want to eat them.

I also feel like gods are with me after been a vegetarian or something like that, obviously I haven't seen any, Is it purely something I have made up, quite possibly may be or do other vegetarians feel like this too..


I don't imagine that gods are with me as a result of my decision not to eat the flesh other beings and I can't see any point in doing that, to be honest. It seems to be creating a fantasy where there needn't be any.

Wishing you all the very best,

Aloka :anjali:

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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby Lucas Oliveira » Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:51 pm

Because the Buddha does not eat only light?

MN 36 - Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka

"Devas, on seeing me, said, 'Gotama the contemplative is dead.' Other devas said, 'He isn't dead, he's dying.' Others said, 'He's neither dead nor dying, he's an arahant, for this is the way arahants live.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html


:anjali:


Living on light: woman attempts to prove humans can live without food

A 65-year-old Seattle woman is attempting to go 100 days on just water, shunning all medical advice in the process

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/14/living-on-light-without-food (just a quick search with the Great Master Google! )


:namaste:
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Ben
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby Ben » Sat Jul 02, 2016 11:58 pm

jackson wrote:
robertk wrote:
DC2R wrote:
Perhaps you can look at it in a more generalized way. Feelings like "the gods are with you" probably stem from the good kamma you develop by not eating animals that have been killed. Soon.

The idea that there is good kamma from being vegetarian is wrong view - and wrong view is akusala.

Hi Robert,
Is there scriptural basis for this? Personally speaking I've seen really wholesome results from being vegetarian, and then vegan. My health is better, and my family seems to respect me more because they know how much I care about other beings, not to mention there is a weight off my conscience. Anyway, this is all anecdotal of course, so I'm open to hearing why it would be that there is no good kamma from being vegetarian.
Best wishes,
:smile:


Yes, very good scriptural support and quite a bit of it, as well. I suggest you research suttas on the Buddha's refutation of the Nigantha's view on kamma and also research the origin of the schism led by Devadutta.
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ihrjordan
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby ihrjordan » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:10 am

Lucas Oliveira wrote:Because the Buddha does not eat only light?

MN 36 - Maha-Saccaka Sutta: The Longer Discourse to Saccaka

"Devas, on seeing me, said, 'Gotama the contemplative is dead.' Other devas said, 'He isn't dead, he's dying.' Others said, 'He's neither dead nor dying, he's an arahant, for this is the way arahants live.'

"I thought: 'Suppose I were to practice going altogether without food.' Then devas came to me and said, 'Dear sir, please don't practice going altogether without food. If you go altogether without food, we'll infuse divine nourishment in through your pores, and you will survive on that.' I thought, 'If I were to claim to be completely fasting while these devas are infusing divine nourishment in through my pores, I would be lying.' So I dismissed them, saying, 'Enough.'

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html


:anjali:


Living on light: woman attempts to prove humans can live without food

A 65-year-old Seattle woman is attempting to go 100 days on just water, shunning all medical advice in the process

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/14/living-on-light-without-food (just a quick search with the Great Master Google! )


:namaste:


One can subsist in the 4th Jhana for a really long time without food because the body has essentially shut down temporarily. It is also rumored that one cannot succumb to injury while the breath is absent as the breath is the primary indicator of life.

SarathW
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby SarathW » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:16 am

it would be that there is no good kamma from being vegetarian.
Best wishes,


Then another question arises "There is bad Kamma from being a non-vegetarian?" etc.

We are living in a society it is impossible for us to avoid animal based products.
Cloths, fertilizer, medical aids, general house hold items contains animal based products.
Is blood infusion and using a donated organ a bad kamma?

This may be the reason why Buddha limited his opinion only to avoid killing.
He also advise monk to practice moderation in food and using products. (medicine, cloths etc)

However I personally think vegetarianism is a good thing even though I am not a vegetarian.
Buddha left that to the individual.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby mario92 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 5:17 am

I think is a social condition, i tried to be vegetarian 7 years ago, but my father became very angry and my familiy worried, there were time when on eating very healthy i would subsist without meat, but i was forced to eat because i live in a society.

But as being vegetarian, i had read in the biography of ajahn thate that, he was subsisting without meat with only vegetarian food, and he taught that he had to came back after he came out from retreat and other people gave him meat. He also said that devas get repelled from the stinky smell the humans have from eating meat, i think thats the reason that oneself get attraction from devas as being vegetarian, plus good conduct.

:hello:
I think karma is the first topic we should understand before starting in meditation.

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seeker242
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby seeker242 » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:07 pm

robertk wrote:
DC2R wrote:
Perhaps you can look at it in a more generalized way. Feelings like "the gods are with you" probably stem from the good kamma you develop by not eating animals that have been killed. Soon.

The idea that there is good kamma from being vegetarian is wrong view - and wrong view is akusala.


Is it wrong view to believe that acts of kindness make good kamma?

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pilgrim
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby pilgrim » Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:52 pm

"Sariputta, there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.' They say: 'Let us live on beans'... 'Let us live on sesamum'... 'Let us live on rice,' and they eat rice, they eat rice powder, [81] they drink rice water, and they make various kinds of rice concoctions. Now I recall having eaten a single rice grain a day. Sariputta, you may think that the rice grain was bigger at that time, yet you should not regard it so: the rice grain was then at most the same size as now. Through feeding on a single rice grain a day, my body reached a state of extreme emaciation. Because of eating so little... the hair, rotted at its roots, fell from my body as I rubbed.

56. "Yet, Sariputta, by such conduct, by such practice, by such performance of austerities, I did not attain any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones.

From the Maha Sihanada sutta, MN12

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:53 pm

pilgrim wrote:"Sariputta, . . .
From the Maha Sihanada sutta, MN12


I believe that is referring to using certain foods for ritualistic means; claiming that certain foods are good for various kinds of purification rituals and for asceticism, not necessarily for vegetarianism.

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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun Jul 03, 2016 2:56 pm

I believe a vegetarian diet can be either unwholesome, neutral, or wholesome.

If the intention is for self-aggrandizement, to belittle and ridicule omnivores, then that would be unwholesome.

If the intention is only for eating healthy and nutritious diet, then perhaps neutral kamma, neither good nor bad.

If the intention is to contribute to less killing and harm to animals; then that would be wholesome. (Referring to lay people, not monks who receive what is placed in alms bowls.)

mature Buddhists think not just of the effects their actions have on themselves but the effects they have on others also, and whether one kills an animal with one's own hands or buys meat from a supermarket, in both cases a sentient being is dead as a result. Consequently, there are Buddhists who feel that by not eating meat they are helping to lessen some of the cruelty in the world, and to this degree vegetarianism is more consistent with the general spirit of the first Precept.
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Postby chownah » Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:45 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
pilgrim wrote:"Sariputta, . . .
From the Maha Sihanada sutta, MN12


I believe that is referring to using certain foods for ritualistic means; claiming that certain foods are good for various kinds of purification rituals and for asceticism, not necessarily for vegetarianism.

The excerpt says "there are certain recluses and brahmans whose doctrine and view is this: 'Purification comes about through food.' They say: 'Let us live on beans'... 'Let us live on sesamum'... 'Let us live on rice,'
Does this sound like "for ritualistic means"....or does it sound like this is their everyday diet? To me it sounds like the budhha is talking about people who think that eating a certain diet can purify them. I don't think that this points directly at vegetarianism but I think it was posted here to point to the buddha's description of the fallacy of thinking that puification comes about through food.
chownah


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