the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:14 pm

daverupa wrote:Related:

The History and Social Influence of the Potato, by Redcliffe N. Salaman.

Great read.

:focus:



:jumping: :rofl:


Sorry that title made me laugh lol
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:19 pm

BV is one of tools to measure protein quality. But even with PDCAAS, please not that milk & egg protein are higher than vegetarian sources provided.
Also, soy is so controversial that I don't consider it. Some other sources such as quinoa doesn't have that much protein as animal sources.


seeker242 wrote: 1.00 casein (milk protein)
1.00 egg white
1.00 soy protein
1.00 whey (milk protein)
0.99 mycoprotein (Quorn, etc.)
0.92 beef
0.91 soybeans
0.78 chickpeas
0.76 fruits
0.75 black beans
0.73 vegetables
0.70 Other legumes
0.59 cereals and derivatives
0.52 peanuts
0.42 whole wheat

As you can see from the above chart, soy and mycoprotein are both superior quality to beef. I'm curious as to where amaranth, buckwheat, quinoa, and spirulina would fall on the above chart. I would not be surprised if any of them scored above beef also.
You are correct about soy, except that it might have bad health side effects, especially for men. I am all for vegetarianism in principle. But unfortunately real life is harsh...


As for quinoa, apparently it has only 4 grams of protein per 100g of it. Meat has 20+.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cer ... ta/10352/2

So if one needs 100-200g of protein per day... One would need 2.5-5 KG (5.5 - 12.1 pounds) of it per day...
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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:57 pm

Some thoughts

Humans can be perfectly healthy eating meat as well as not eating it


That some people only have the choice of eating meat

That if enough people stopped eating meat, the suffering of animals would diminish

However if someone goes for a meal at someone's house and is offered a slice of turkey as part of the meal, they should eat it. Otherwise they are clinging to the ideal of vegetarianism instead of practicing equanimity.
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:30 pm

clw_uk wrote:...However if someone goes for a meal at someone's house and is offered a slice of turkey as part of the meal, they should eat it.
If I'm invited for a meal, I always tell people in advance that I'm a vegetarian. I'm also happy to eat the vegetable side dishes or to take a veggie burger with me if there's no other alternative. Its never been a problem and its not necessary to eat the meat.
Otherwise they are clinging to the ideal of vegetarianism instead of practicing equanimity.
I disagree :tongue:

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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:59 pm

Aloka wrote:
clw_uk wrote:...However if someone goes for a meal at someone's house and is offered a slice of turkey as part of the meal, they should eat it.
If I'm invited for a meal, I always tell people in advance that I'm a vegetarian. I'm also happy to eat the vegetable side dishes or to take a veggie burger with me if there's no other alternative. Its never been a problem and its not necessary to eat the meat.
Otherwise they are clinging to the ideal of vegetarianism instead of practicing equanimity.
I disagree :tongue:

Strange to find a topic we disagree on lol :jumping:


But if someone offers you meat, why would you decline if it wasnt for holding to a doctrine?

I think thats why the Buddha did eat meat if it was offered and why vegetarianism isnt required for enlightenment
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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:02 pm

Alex123 wrote:BV is one of tools to measure protein quality. But even with PDCAAS, please not that milk & egg protein are higher than vegetarian sources provided.
Also, soy is so controversial that I don't consider it. Some other sources such as quinoa doesn't have that much protein as animal sources.


seeker242 wrote: 1.00 casein (milk protein)
1.00 egg white
1.00 soy protein
1.00 whey (milk protein)
0.99 mycoprotein (Quorn, etc.)
0.92 beef
0.91 soybeans
0.78 chickpeas
0.76 fruits
0.75 black beans
0.73 vegetables
0.70 Other legumes
0.59 cereals and derivatives
0.52 peanuts
0.42 whole wheat

As you can see from the above chart, soy and mycoprotein are both superior quality to beef. I'm curious as to where amaranth, buckwheat, quinoa, and spirulina would fall on the above chart. I would not be surprised if any of them scored above beef also.
You are correct about soy, except that it might have bad health side effects, especially for men. I am all for vegetarianism in principle. But unfortunately real life is harsh...


As for quinoa, apparently it has only 4 grams of protein per 100g of it. Meat has 20+.
http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cer ... ta/10352/2

So if one needs 100-200g of protein per day... One would need 2.5-5 KG (5.5 - 12.1 pounds) of it per day...
Yes! However, those differences become completely irrelevant when speaking in the context of a 2,500 calorie diet that is balanced from a variety of plant foods. Frutarians...now that is a different story! Experts agree that it's near impossible to be deficient in protein quality or quantity as long as you get enough calories. So yes, technically you can say "beef has more protein per gram than quinoa". But when speaking in the context of a balanced non-calorie deficient diet, that technicality becomes irrelevant.

I also don't agree that soy in moderate quantities has bad effects, especially for men. The evidence just doesn't show this. The evidence does show that if soy is consumed in extremely massive quantities, then you start to see bad effects. The evidence simply does not show that soy consumed moderately is bad for you. Brings to mind the old saying "too much of anything is bad for you". Heck, too much water can actually kill you. Doesn't mean water is bad for you!

:namaste:
clw_uk wrote:

But if someone offers you meat, why would you decline if it wasnt for holding to a doctrine?
Speaking for myself, for the same reason why other ordinary everyday, even non buddhist, people would decline human meat, if it was offered to them.

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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:15 pm

Speaking for myself, for the same reason why other ordinary everyday, even non buddhist, people would decline human meat, if it was offered to them.

You raise an important point. Why would the Buddha allow for the eating of animal meat and not human meat, if offered at a meal.

The only conclusion I can come to is to keep up the image of the sangha
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:23 pm

clw_uk wrote: Strange to find a topic we disagree on lol :jumping:
Yes Indeed ;)

But if someone offers you meat, why would you decline if it wasnt for holding to a doctrine?

I think thats why the Buddha did eat meat if it was offered and why vegetarianism isnt required for enlightenment

Since childhood I've always disliked the taste of meat and as I've mentioned before, I was a vegetarian before I became a Buddhist.

In the case of the Buddha, monks eat whatever they are offered, they can't pick and choose. However, I'm a lay practitioner and so I can.

:)

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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:26 pm

Since childhood I've always disliked the taste of meat and as I've mentioned before, I was a vegetarian before I became a Buddhist.
Thats fair enough :) although you could argue that eating something that isnt your taste could be a learning curve in experiencing and letting go of dukkha. Of course Im just musing now :sage:
In the case of the Buddha, monks eat whatever they are offered, they can't pick and choose. However, I'm a lay practitioner and so I can.

touche :jedi: :jumping:
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reflection
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by reflection » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:32 pm

Alex123 wrote:
I am all for vegetarianism in principle. But unfortunately real life is harsh...

As you also acknowledge a vegetarian diet without missing important nutriments is possible so it's just a matter of wanting to put forth the effort. Millions of people make it work so apparently it's not as harsh as you think.

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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:39 pm

reflection wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
I am all for vegetarianism in principle. But unfortunately real life is harsh...

As you also acknowledge a vegetarian diet without missing important nutriments is possible so it's just a matter of wanting to put forth the effort. Millions of people make it work so apparently it's not as harsh as you think.

That depends on the context.
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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:10 pm

clw_uk wrote:
Speaking for myself, for the same reason why other ordinary everyday, even non buddhist, people would decline human meat, if it was offered to them.

You raise an important point. Why would the Buddha allow for the eating of animal meat and not human meat, if offered at a meal.

The only conclusion I can come to is to keep up the image of the sangha
I would be interested in seeing scriptural evidence of that if anyone has one. The only conclusion I can come to is that cannibalism is unethical.

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reflection
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by reflection » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:13 pm

clw_uk wrote:
reflection wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
I am all for vegetarianism in principle. But unfortunately real life is harsh...

As you also acknowledge a vegetarian diet without missing important nutriments is possible so it's just a matter of wanting to put forth the effort. Millions of people make it work so apparently it's not as harsh as you think.

That depends on the context.
That's true of course. But the reasons Alex gave I don't think are a context that makes it hard.

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clw_uk
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by clw_uk » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:32 pm

seeker242 wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Speaking for myself, for the same reason why other ordinary everyday, even non buddhist, people would decline human meat, if it was offered to them.

You raise an important point. Why would the Buddha allow for the eating of animal meat and not human meat, if offered at a meal.

The only conclusion I can come to is to keep up the image of the sangha
I would be interested in seeing scriptural evidence of that if anyone has one. The only conclusion I can come to is that cannibalism is unethical.

:namaste:

In the sense of it involves killing a human, then yes. However this is no different to the killing of cows for meat. Therefore if a monk visited Hannibal lectres house, and he provides a meal of liver and beans, with some wine ;) the monk would have to eat it, as long as he hadn't seen it or suspected the guy was killed for him to eat, yet not drink the wine ;)
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Alex123
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Alex123 » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:48 pm

seeker242 wrote: Yes! However, those differences become completely irrelevant when speaking in the context of a 2,500 calorie diet that is balanced from a variety of plant foods.
If a person needs at least 100g of protein, then what vegetarian foods do you suggest?

While I do soak and blend cashews or pumpkin seeds, because they are too high in calories (and only eating them is iffy), it is not the optimum for me, for now. Not considering the cost either.

Also, whey is optimum post workout shake, but it is not vegetarian food. :( There is no equivalent vegetarian substitute for it. I am not going to take soy.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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