the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
justindesilva
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by justindesilva »

Sam Vara wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote: I can recall at least a couple of times someone telling me that they are vegetarian while they are chewing on a chicken wing. They should at least put the chicken wing down while making that claim. :tongue:
If they had their mouth full, maybe you misheard them saying that the chicken was vegetarian... ;)
My farmer friend told me a conversation with his cow. And when the cow came to know that his owner is a vegetarian she (cow) inquired why . When this owner replied that it is because he loves the cows, the cow too replied that , that is the very reason the cow eats grass because, she (cow) loves the owner.
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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 »

Spiny Norman wrote:I tried being a vegan but I missed ice-cream too much.... :embarassed: :lol:
There have been great advances in vegan ice cream the past couple years. Even Haagen Daz now makes vegan versions. :lol:
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Sam Vara
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara »

justindesilva wrote: My farmer friend told me a conversation with his cow. And when the cow came to know that his owner is a vegetarian she (cow) inquired why . When this owner replied that it is because he loves the cows, the cow too replied that , that is the very reason the cow eats grass because, she (cow) loves the owner.
Excellent story - thank you!
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Aloka
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Aloka »

Here's a story about a farmer in the UK:

"Vegetarian farmer saves cow herd from abattoir by donating it to animal sanctuary"

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 89131.html


:anjali:
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

David N. Snyder wrote: For example, they could be counting as "vegetarian" people who just try it out for a week or two, perhaps to experiment or to lose some weight, etc.
I need to be careful not to tie my self-esteem to short-term weight loss. I am changing my diet for long-term health.
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Dhammanando wrote: Which rather undermines your stated reason for not being a vegan:
Changing diet has to be personal, rather than one-size-fits-all, based on what a person is most likely to stick to over the long-term. Unlike vegans, I don't have a philosophical objection to eggs and dairy. I am changing my diet for my own personal health.

Egg whites and non-fat dairy products are a main source of protein in my mostly plant-based diet. I am basing this diet on the recommendations of Dr. Dean Ornish for those at risk for heart disease.
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

​There was a widely watched vegan Youtuber who recently quit veganism and now instead makes videos of himself binge eating on pizza and burgers and other junk food. He's been gaining substantial weight because of it. I want to avoid a similar fate. I am going vegetarian instead of vegan, because I know I am more likely to follow such a diet.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

I just realized that, for the last week, I've been eating yogurt with gelatin in it. What the heck? Is there such thing as vegetarian yogurt??? There's gelatin in sour cream too????

I've decided that I am not going to freak out over inadvertently purchasing items with trace amounts of gelatin in it. I became vegetarian for personal health first, and animal rights a distant second.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

I read that tuna fish can be helpful to weight loss, so I put a half a can of tuna in my salad just to try it. I hadn't eaten any sort of animal flesh for two weeks, and tuna used to be one of my favorite foods.

Instead of enjoying it, though, it made me feel disgusted, because I couldn't stop thinking about how this was a rotting, dead animal. It upset my stomach. I also felt bad about eating it, because even if the label says "dolphin-safe," that doesn't mean dolphins aren't killed in the process:
U.S. “dolphin-safe” tuna endangers the entire marine ecosystem. By narrowly focusing on fishing methods rather than results, today’s “dolphin-safe” labels permit and encourage fishing methods oblivious to the bycatch of sharks, turtles, juvenile tunas, sea birds and other sea life...

The truth is that under current U.S. labeling standards, bycatch, including that of dolphins, does in fact occur and is unknown in most cases.

In 2012, the World Trade Organization ruled, after a full review of all of the scientific and empirical evidence, that “dolphin-safe” tuna standards established by Congress in 1990, while effective in motivating change at the time, are now outdated and, in fact, deceptive to U.S. consumers. The reality is that the U.S. law and "dolphin-safe" policy ONLY certifies that no harm occurred to dolphins if the tuna were caught in the ETP fishery. It found that even when thousands of dolphins are killed in the course of fishing for tuna outside of the ETP, the canned tuna bears the “dolphin-safe” label under the current labeling standards. More than 98% of the tuna in the U.S. market today is sourced from these and other unmonitored and untracked fisheries where thousands of dolphins are killed every year.
http://www.ecosafetuna.org/case-for-eco ... -isnt.html
The average person doesn't know that the World Trade Organization ruled against dolphin-safe labeling as a deceptive practice.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

One thing I know for sure is that the Buddha was not a vegan. In the Pali scriptures, the Buddha eats rice mixed with milk, along with rice cakes and honey. The Buddha did teach, however, that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat or to profit from the killing of animals for meat.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Garrib
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Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by Garrib »

I am aware that killing is an unwholesome action. And I understand that eating meat is not forbidden by the Buddha (for monastics) - so long as one does not kill the being, or request that food, or eat it knowing that the being was killed specifically for the purposes of feeding them. Personally speaking, I have settled on not seeking out meat, not purchasing it, and generally trying to keep away from it. But sometimes, my father will buy some seafood dish and I will partake. This evening, he has acquired two living lobsters and is preparing to cook them (to death) - I will not partake in this meal...

And I could be imagining this, but it seems that he is in a somewhat rude mood this evening - kind of amping up for the act. And it occurs to me: It is impossible to kill unless you have an unwholesome mind state. And so on for all other violations of precepts. Is this the basic reason why these precepts have been given by the Blessed One?
santa100
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by santa100 »

Garrib wrote:Is this the basic reason why these precepts have been given by the Blessed One?
AN 11.1 puts moral precepts as the very first condition in the chains of factors that lead to Nibbana.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dhammarakkhito »

is this the only place we can post about ontological veganism
well, it's against the 1st precept to kill and also, if i recall correctly, to encourage someone to kill. when you pay for an animal product -- meat, leather, anything (animal products are in many, many things), you're promoting the murder of animals for profit. if you're conscious about this process, you face a moral crisis. monks are of course exempt given they don't use money (unless seen, heard or suspected...)
buddhism leading to uncomfortable conclusions isn't an excuse to go easy on the rules
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Garrib
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by Garrib »

santa100 wrote:
Garrib wrote:Is this the basic reason why these precepts have been given by the Blessed One?
AN 11.1 puts moral precepts as the very first condition in the chains of factors that lead to Nibbana.
Thank you, Santa. Virtue is the foundation for the path...
Spiny Norman
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Re: Eating meat vs doing the killing

Post by Spiny Norman »

Garrib wrote:And it occurs to me: It is impossible to kill unless you have an unwholesome mind state. And so on for all other violations of precepts. Is this the basic reason why these precepts have been given by the Blessed One?
Yes, and I think this relates to the development of Right Intention.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... index.html
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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