the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Santi253
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 4:37 am
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:16 am

I just thought of something that could drastically improve America's health, especially for low-income people: Fruits and vegetables should cost less for people on food stamps. Grocery stores could even be reimbursed at the normal amount, while incentivizing low-income people to eat healthier foods.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1493
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:49 pm

Santi253 wrote:I just thought of something that could drastically improve America's health, especially for low-income people: Fruits and vegetables should cost less for people on food stamps. Grocery stores could even be reimbursed at the normal amount, while incentivizing low-income people to eat healthier foods.
I would go for fruits and vegetables costing less in general. Its pretty sad when it is much more financially responsible to only eat instant ramen and other foods like that while putting yourself through university (he said from experience).
神足示現者,
世尊隨其所應,而示現入禪定正受,陵虛至東方,作四威儀,
行、住、坐、臥,入火三昧,出種種火光,青、黃、赤、白、
紅、頗梨色,水火俱現, 或身下出火,身上出水,身上出火,
身下出水,周圓四方亦復如是。

binocular
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:55 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:I would go for fruits and vegetables costing less in general. Its pretty sad when it is much more financially responsible to only eat instant ramen and other foods like that while putting yourself through university (he said from experience).
This year, we have more tomatoes, peppers, and cucumbers in our garden than we can eat or prepare for winter. I'd gladly give you some.
The disadvantages of online acquaintances ...

Santi253
Posts: 982
Joined: Thu May 11, 2017 4:37 am
Contact:

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:31 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Santi253 wrote:I just thought of something that could drastically improve America's health, especially for low-income people: Fruits and vegetables should cost less for people on food stamps. Grocery stores could even be reimbursed at the normal amount, while incentivizing low-income people to eat healthier foods.
I would go for fruits and vegetables costing less in general. Its pretty sad when it is much more financially responsible to only eat instant ramen and other foods like that while putting yourself through university (he said from experience).
Brown rice, bananas, and potatoes are always pretty cheap, among some other plant foods.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com

User avatar
samseva
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by samseva » Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:24 am

lostitude wrote:
Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:53 am
samseva wrote:- If you are to eat legumes, prepare them thoroughly (since they can damage your digestive system if not).
Hi samseva, would you mind saying more about this? Thanks.
There are different compounds in legumes which either attach to nutrients in the gut, or damage the gut itself. The main ways of rendering these inactive (or mostly inactive) is by one or more of these methods:

- Soaking
- Cooking
- Fermentation (such a soya beans in tempeh, traditionally-made soya sauce, sourdough bread)

Note that each method affects these components in different ways and to different degrees, according to the food item. The information is widely available online. Just look up each food you eat in reasonable amounts, making sure you are reading credible websites. If you want good places to start, check out Stephan Guyenet, Paul Jaminet, Chris Kresser and Mark Sisson (in order of scholarly credibility).

Ironically, traditional cultures (no pun intended) have been correctly preparing, as well as fermenting, many of their staples such as legumes and a number of their grains. It is only since the past few decades that we eat unfermented soya/tofu by the pound, and other similar things.
Last edited by samseva on Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
Posts: 6601
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by chownah » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:58 am

samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:24 am


Ironically, traditional cultures (no pun intended) have been correctly preparing, as well as fermenting, many of their staples such as legumes and a number of their grains. It is only since the past few decades that we eat unfermented soya/toju by the pound, and other similar things.
What is "toju"....do you mean "tofu"? If so then in making tofu you first soak the beans and then you extract the soy milk and then you cook it.....so it seems to conform to your list of ways to make it good to eat.
chownah

davidbrainerd
Posts: 993
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:25 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:49 pm
Santi253 wrote:I just thought of something that could drastically improve America's health, especially for low-income people: Fruits and vegetables should cost less for people on food stamps. Grocery stores could even be reimbursed at the normal amount, while incentivizing low-income people to eat healthier foods.
I would go for fruits and vegetables costing less in general. Its pretty sad when it is much more financially responsible to only eat instant ramen and other foods like that while putting yourself through university (he said from experience).
Fruits and vegetables are already cheap. As for people on food stamps, they need to get a job.

How much is an apple? For non-organic, like 97 cents a pound. Organic, 1.98 to $3 a pound, depending on if its a Fuji, Gala, Honey Crisp or whatever. "Let's make the gov'ment make it 1 penny a pound." So farmers can starve? I'd rather than lazy who refuse to work starve than the farmers. Get a job.

davidbrainerd
Posts: 993
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:12 am

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by davidbrainerd » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:35 am

davidbrainerd wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:25 am
How much is an apple? For non-organic, like 97 cents a pound. Organic, 1.98 to $3 a pound, depending on if its a Fuji, Gala, Honey Crisp or whatever.
And organic is justly more expensive. As someone who does organic gardening, I know it ain't easy keeping the crop alive without pesticides. And apple trees are ridiculously weak, so growing apple tress without pesticide is like gambling.

User avatar
samseva
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by samseva » Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:56 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:58 am
samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:24 am


Ironically, traditional cultures (no pun intended) have been correctly preparing, as well as fermenting, many of their staples such as legumes and a number of their grains. It is only since the past few decades that we eat unfermented soya/toju by the pound, and other similar things.
What is "toju"....do you mean "tofu"? If so then in making tofu you first soak the beans and then you extract the soy milk and then you cook it.....so it seems to conform to your list of ways to make it good to eat.
chownah
Like I mentioned in my initial post, the methods work—or don't work—according the combounds. I don't eat tofu for a number of reasons (one being that 95%+ of non-organic tofu in North America is genitally modified), so I haven't researched much regarding its' preparation methods.

From what I do know, tofu was traditionally fermented before it became a modern and Western "health" food, and fermentation seems to be benefitial (fermentation is basically bacteria digesting the food before you eat it) to deactivate some combounds which cause health issues, as well as significantly increasing the amount of one or a few vitamins, such as with vitamin K (like with tempeh). You'd have to do your own reading to know more about it though.

chownah
Posts: 6601
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by chownah » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:27 am

samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:56 am

Like I mentioned in my initial post, the methods work—or don't work—according the combounds. I don't eat tofu for a number of reasons (one being that 95%+ of non-organic tofu in North America is genitally modified), so I haven't researched much regarding its' preparation methods.

From what I do know, tofu was traditionally fermented before it became a modern and Western "health" food, and fermentation seems to be benefitial (fermentation is basically bacteria digesting the food before you eat it) to deactivate some combounds which cause health issues, as well as significantly increasing the amount of one or a few vitamins, such as with vitamin K (like with tempeh). You'd have to do your own reading to know more about it though.
I have read quite a bit about tofu and used to make it myself. I have never heard of it being fermented traditionally and in fact if tofu is fermented it would probably be called something else. I have always heard of it being traditionally being made using nigari as the coagulant.
Can you provide a link saying that traditinally tofu was fermented? I would be glad to read about this.
chownah

User avatar
samseva
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by samseva » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:45 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:27 am
I have read quite a bit about tofu and used to make it myself. I have never heard of it being fermented traditionally and in fact if tofu is fermented it would probably be called something else. I have always heard of it being traditionally being made using nigari as the coagulant.
Can you provide a link saying that traditinally tofu was fermented? I would be glad to read about this.
chownah
Like I said, I don't eat tofu so had no reason to research it much. Were all forms of soya products—not tofu— fermented? Probably not, but a large portion of soya products were traditionally fermented (tempeh, nato, soya sauce and so on). Fermented tofu does and did exist for many thousands of years, though. Look it up.

Anyway, I simply answered lostatitude's question. I'm not a tofu expert, you would be better off doing your own research.

User avatar
samseva
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by samseva » Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:50 am

chownah wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:27 am
Can you provide a link saying that traditinally tofu was fermented? I would be glad to read about this.
chownah
I found this earlier:
History of Fermented Tofu by William Shurtleff and Akiko Aoyagi

lostitude
Posts: 409
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:02 am

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by lostitude » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:15 pm

samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:56 am
95%+ of non-organic tofu in North America is genitally modified
:rofl: :lol: :rofl:
There are different compounds in legumes which either attach to nutrients in the gut, or damage the gut itself. The main ways of rendering these inactive (or mostly inactive) is by one or more of these methods:

- Soaking
- Cooking
- Fermentation (such a soya beans in tempeh, traditionally-made soya sauce, sourdough bread)

Note that each method affects these components in different ways and to different degrees, according to the food item. The information is widely available online. Just look up each food you eat in reasonable amounts, making sure you are reading credible websites. If you want good places to start, check out Stephan Guyenet, Paul Jaminet, Chris Kresser and Mark Sisson (in order of scholarly credibility).
Thanks for the references. I had heard of that but wondered what type of legumes could possibly be eaten raw, until Sam Vara came up with a list of legumes I had no idea could be eaten raw by some people...

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2458
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:23 pm

lostitude wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:15 pm
samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:56 am
95%+ of non-organic tofu in North America is genitally modified
:rofl: :lol: :rofl:

Is that what they mean by trans fats?

User avatar
samseva
Posts: 2095
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:59 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by samseva » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:46 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:23 pm
lostitude wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:15 pm
samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:56 am
95%+ of non-organic tofu in North America is genitally modified
:rofl: :lol: :rofl:
Is that what they mean by trans fats?
Sorry, I meant 95%+ of non-organic soy in North America is genetically modified.

Straight from the ISAAA (International Service for the Acquisition of Agri-Biotech Applications), although worldwide:
http://www.isaaa.org/resources/publications/pocketk/16/
The most planted biotech crops in 2016 were soybean, maize, cotton, and canola. Although there was only 1% increase in the planting of biotech soybean, it maintained its high adoption rate of 50% of the global biotech crops or 91.4 million hectares. This area is 78% of the total soybean production worldwide (Figure 3).
Regarding trans fats, these are the result of the chemical alteration of unsaturated fat by chemically adding an atom of hydrogen, such as the hydrogenation of soybean oil to turn it into margarine. Trans fat and hydrogenated oils have been found to create a host of health problems (there are minute amounts of naturally occuring trans fat that have been found to be beneficial healthwise though—a bit like good cholesterol).

Chemically-created trans fats could be made with organic soyabean oil and it would still be bad for your health—being genetically modified probably doesn't help. We'll have to wait to see the possible side-effects of genetically-modified food, though (the people of this generation are the guinea pigs).

binocular
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by binocular » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:26 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:23 pm
lostitude wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:15 pm
samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:56 am
95%+ of non-organic tofu in North America is genitally modified
:rofl: :lol: :rofl:
Is that what they mean by trans fats?
Help me out here:
L --legumes
G -- grains
B --
T --

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2458
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:30 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:26 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:23 pm
lostitude wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:15 pm
:rofl: :lol: :rofl:
Is that what they mean by trans fats?
Help me out here:
L --legumes
G -- grains
B --
T --
Thank goodness someone recognises my terrible humour! I suggest "Beans" and "Tempeh". :)

binocular
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:35 am

Beans = legumes
Tempeh = soy = legumes

Let's do B12 for the "B" and now we need only something for the "T."

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 2458
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:53 am

binocular wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:35 am
Beans = legumes
Tempeh = soy = legumes

Let's do B12 for the "B" and now we need only something for the "T."
If you dropped "Legumes" for "L" (too general) you could have "Lentils" or "Lima Beans" instead, and then we could keep "Tempeh". "B" could also be "Borlotti Beans", of course.

If you go any further, "Q" is going to present difficulties. Do you have "Quorn" in your country?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quorn

binocular
Posts: 4073
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:58 am

We have quinoa, but we don't have quorn.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests