the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:33 am

Man, this thread has turned into a real kale fire.

:mrgreen:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:49 am

Mkoll wrote:Man, this thread has turned into a real kale fire.

:mrgreen:
I hate kale, though I might drink it mixed up in a juice.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:50 am

chownah wrote:
Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote:Have there been any studies of the atkins diet?
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
If there are, ............
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
Santi253 wrote: Also, the studies are illegitimate if they use an unfair methodology from the beginning:
In one of the major studies,3 before the diet began the participants’ diets were 33% fat; the goal was to reduce to 30% fat – but in the end their “low-fat” diets actually contained 33% of the calories as fat (the same as before they started) – so where is the low-fat part of the comparison alleged by the title of the article? – “A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.”

3) Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L. A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl ... kinsPF.htm
I also can't stress enough that I would tend to not trust a study funded by or linked to the meat or dairy industries.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:07 am

I would also like to reiterate that I am not an animal rights activist, and that I've chosen to pursue a plant-based diet mostly for health reasons.

The Buddha in the Pali canon taught that you shouldn't kill animals for meat or eat meat which was specifically killed for you, but he never said we should abstain from all animal products whatsoever:
Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison. These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in. - The Buddha, The Vanijja Sutta
Monks, I allow you fish and meat that are quite pure in three respects: if they are not seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. But you should not knowingly make use of meat killed on purpose for you. - The Buddha, The Book of Discipline
Some vegans are so extreme, they care more about animals than humans:
The most vociferous and probably largest of these groups in the United States, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), declares that "animals are not ours to use - for food, clothing, entertainment, or experimentation." PETA calls xenotransplantation "Frankenstein science" and in June 1999, formally asked the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to ban all xenotransplantation experiments.

On the other side is the argument that human needs trump animal rights.

AIDS patient Jeff Getty, who underwent an experimental xenotransplantation of baboon bone marrow in 1995, contended in a 1996 letter to the Wall Street Journal, "You can't be for AIDS, breast cancer and diabetes research and also support militant animal rights groups" - because animal research is essential to scientific progress against disease.
http://apps.engr.utexas.edu/ethics/orga ... hxeno2.cfm
The Buddha, on the other hand, taught the middle way. In reality, PETA kills more animals than they save:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_fo ... er_animals
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:39 pm

Another thing is, if you want to have fat in your diet, studies have shown that plant fats are healthier than animal fats:


Is there anything to the theory that coconut oil is good for our health?
As we know now that the human body is made of natural saturated fats, we need to add it back into our diets. The medium chain fatty acids found in coconut oil do not raise blood sugar and reduces hypoglycemic symptoms. These fats do not circulate in the blood streams and are immediately used up for energy. Whereas vegetable oils depress thyroid functions, lowering metabolic active unlike coconut oil. The bio directional affect of coconut oil heals metabolic disorders, helping you to lose weight. The Journal ofIndian Medical Association has reported that since Indians have abandoned traditional oils - like coconut oils, mustard oil and pure ghee - the prevalence of type 2 diabetes have increased and is on the rise.
http://food.ndtv.com/health/why-saturat ... es-1666704
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lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:21 pm

Santi253 wrote:If you want to know who only cares about selling books, Dr. Robert Atkins was an incredible opportunist:
Gosh but why does it have to be either Ornish or Atkins? One extreme or the other? You really can't think of anything in between? I quit :shrug: :smile:

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:10 pm

lostitude wrote:
Santi253 wrote:If you want to know who only cares about selling books, Dr. Robert Atkins was an incredible opportunist:
Gosh but why does it have to be either Ornish or Atkins? One extreme or the other? You really can't think of anything in between? I quit :shrug: :smile:
I thought Dr. Ornish was at the middle end. He allows for 10% of your diet to come from fat, while allowing for egg whites and nonfat dairy. The Ornish diet is not a strictly vegan diet.
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lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:52 pm

Santi253 wrote:
lostitude wrote:
Santi253 wrote:If you want to know who only cares about selling books, Dr. Robert Atkins was an incredible opportunist:
Gosh but why does it have to be either Ornish or Atkins? One extreme or the other? You really can't think of anything in between? I quit :shrug: :smile:
I thought Dr. Ornish was at the middle end. He allows for 10% of your diet to come from fat, while allowing for egg whites and nonfat dairy. The Ornish diet is not a strictly vegan diet.
An average, balanced, healthy diet comprises between 35% and 40% fat (in calories). 10% is ridiculously low.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:29 pm

An "average, healthy, balanced diet" leads to heart disease in many cases. The plant based diet has been proven to reverse heart disease, plenty of evidence to back that up.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:42 pm

lostitude wrote:An average, balanced, healthy diet comprises between 35% and 40% fat (in calories). 10% is ridiculously low.
Good grief. That's the standard American Pizza Hut & McDonalds diet, which is precisely why our country has so much heart disease. Before further commenting on the recommendations of Dr. Ornish, please look up the reasons why people at serious risk of heart disease need to be on a low-fat diet, especially those like myself who already have high blood pressure.
Santi253 wrote:
Triglycerides – this term refers to fat in the blood. This is a kind of fat that people eat, found mostly in vegetable oil and animal fats. When it exists in high levels in your blood, it can signal increased risk for cardiovascular disease, because triglycerides also contribute to a buildup of plaque in your arteries.
http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/digestiv ... terol.html
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:45 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:An "average, healthy, balanced diet" leads to heart disease in many cases. The plant based diet has been proven to reverse heart disease, plenty of evidence to back that up.
Thank you. That's exactly what I've been trying to say. I've put my taste for meat above my personal health for way too long. Now I no longer even have an appetite for it.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Tue Jul 11, 2017 11:36 pm

Some vegans are trolling me on Tumblr for saying that eggs and dairy products aren't as bad as eating the flesh of a killed animal. I've always thought of veganism as more of an ideology than a dietary choice. If they get bit by a snake, I'll make sure not to offend their beliefs by offering anti-venom.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:02 am

I've been having insomnia lately after switching to a plant-based diet, since I am not used to feeling this much energy. I just walked a mile after staying up all night, and I still feel great.
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:05 am

Greetings Santi, all,

:focus:

Please be mind that this is a topic to debate the pros and cons of vegetarianism in the context of the Dhamma. Hence why it is in the "Connections to Other Paths" section.

If you wish to explore the topic from a wellness, diet & fitness perspective, I recommend you do that in the Wellness, Diet & Fitness forum.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:30 am

retrofuturist wrote:[
If you wish to explore the topic from a wellness, diet & fitness perspective, I recommend you do that in the Wellness, Diet & Fitness forum.
I already did that and it got merged into this thread. That wasn't my decision. The thread was entitled "Buddhist Vegetarianism & Physical Health."
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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