the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:56 am

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am
To produce protein from grazing beef, cattle are killed. One death delivers (on average, across Australia’s grazing lands) a carcass of about 288 kilograms. This is approximately 68% boneless meat which, at 23% protein equals 45kg of protein per animal killed. This means 2.2 animals killed for each 100kg of useable animal protein produced.

Producing protein from wheat means ploughing pasture land and planting it with seed. Anyone who has sat on a ploughing tractor knows the predatory birds that follow you all day are not there because they have nothing better to do. Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year.

However, the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.


Each area of grain production in Australia has a mouse plague on average every four years, with 500-1000 mice per hectare. Poisoning kills at least 80% of the mice.

At least 100 mice are killed per hectare per year (500/4 × 0.8) to grow grain. Average yields are about 1.4 tonnes of wheat/hectare; 13% of the wheat is useable protein. Therefore, at least 55 sentient animals die to produce 100kg of useable plant protein: 25 times more than for the same amount of rangelands beef.

Some of this grain is used to “finish” beef cattle in feed lots (some is food for dairy cattle, pigs and poultry), but it is still the case that many more sentient lives are sacrificed to produce useable protein from grains than from rangelands cattle.

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
The massive hole in your neat little argument is that cows eat vegetarian food too, 8-10lbs of grain to produce 1lb of meat, so if you feed the people the grain direct you could feed 8-10 people on the food it takes to feed one person with beef, So basically your argument about animals being killed farming grain, you're killing 8-10 times as many animals and the cow as well when you eat meat instead of being vegetarian.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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seeker242
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by seeker242 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:46 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am

Published figures suggest that, in Australia

https://theconversation.com/ordering-th ... hands-4659
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
I don't live in Australia. :smile:

And many of the points made have been debunked.

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... lth-advice

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... i-land-use

http://www.animalliberation.org.au/blog ... use-deaths
Last edited by seeker242 on Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:55 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:48 am
If anyone here is a vegetarian, what is your reason to maintain your vegetarian diet after reading this article?
I simply don't like the smell and taste of meat, never have.

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Re: Eating in a restaurant part 2

Post by binocular » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:57 pm

SarathW wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:01 am
Say, 3 billion vegetarians surely would make a difference.
Top
Problem is not that simple.
Animal skin fetches more money than the meat content.
Animals are raised not only for meat consumption.
It does not mean we should not be vegetarians.
I consume meat but I enjoy vegetables more than the meat.
Well, apparently, the actual problem is that people want to enjoy numerous luxuries and don't care how much suffering of other beings procuring those luxuries entails.
So the solution would be to minimize or eliminate that desire for luxuries ... which is likely to be difficult.

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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:13 am

Quorn sausage with French mustard is tasty. :woohoo:
Buddha save me from new-agers!

D1W1
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Gym and Buddhism

Post by D1W1 » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:43 am

Hi all,

Some people say eating meat increases killing, other people say a vegetarian/vegan killing more animals as we can see in the "great vegetarian debate". If you are a vegetarian and you eat egg you are supporting the mass killing of 200.000.000ish male chicks. It comes to mind that the best practice is to live in moderation, including eating, eating only for survival whether one is a vegetarian or not.

Ven.Dhammananda says:
People who criticize Buddhists who eat meat do not understand the Buddhist attitude towards food. A living being needs nourishment. We eat to live. As such a human being should supply his body with the food it needs to keep him healthy and to give him energy to work. However, as a result of increasing wealth, more and more people, especially in developed countries, eat simply to satisfy their palates. If one craves after any kind of food, or kills to satisfy his greed for meat, this is wrong. But if one eats without greed and without directly being involved in the act of killing but merely to sustain the physical body, he is practising self restraint.
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha189.htm
I'm wondering does this mean some exercises/sports are not compatible with Buddhist practice? For example, if you do gym, you need a certain amount of protein intake, I think more or less that is not eating in moderation. Can you practice Buddhism and live your lay life happily at the same time? Thank you in advance.

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cappuccino
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by cappuccino » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:05 pm

Store meat is not dangerous to eat, in terms of karma.
Since it's already there & not for you in particular.

Your conscience is another matter.

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DNS
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by DNS » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:21 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:43 am
I'm wondering does this mean some exercises/sports are not compatible with Buddhist practice? For example, if you do gym, you need a certain amount of protein intake, I think more or less that is not eating in moderation. Can you practice Buddhism and live your lay life happily at the same time? Thank you in advance.
Unless you are a world class athlete, you don't need that much more food, even if you do vigorous exercise. You might need to increase your food amount just a little, which is fine, imo.

When he was training, I heard that Michael Phelps ate about 10,000 calories per day and burned it with his 6+ hours of swimming laps per day. That is an extreme example, where most of us don't do any where near that much exercise.

In general, if you're not obese and at or fairly close to your ideal weight, then you are doing fine in regard to eating in moderation.

rolling_boulder
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by rolling_boulder » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:01 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:21 pm
In general, if you're not obese and at or fairly close to your ideal weight, then you are doing fine in regard to eating in moderation.
Yeah, I think this is good advice. In my experience it's better not to dwell so much on the eating thing, as long as you aren't having serious problems.
The world is swept away. It does not endure...
The world is without shelter, without protector...
The world is without ownership. One has to pass on, leaving everything behind...
The world is insufficient, insatiable, a slave to craving.

D1W1
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by D1W1 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:39 am

Thanks guys for the prompt reply.
DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:21 pm

Unless you are a world class athlete, you don't need that much more food, even if you do vigorous exercise. You might need to increase your food amount just a little, which is fine, imo.

In general, if you're not obese and at or fairly close to your ideal weight, then you are doing fine in regard to eating in moderation.
Say you are eating 2-3 eggs per day, that is 60-90 eggs per month or 1080 eggs per year. That means more eggs from eggs industry and more killing of male chicks.
I fail to see "moderation" in this eating habit. Do I miss something? Thank you.

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bodom
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by bodom » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:30 pm

I was a bodybuilder for a long time. Yes it's true that if you are lifting weights 4-5 times a week you will need a lot of protein. I would usually aim for a gram of protein per pound of body weight. So I would easily be taking in over 200-250 grams of protein a day through multiple sources. If you don't want to eat meat then get yourself a good quality protein powder to meet your body's needs. Also oatmeal, peanut butter, milk, beans are all good sources of protein. It is possible.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

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DNS
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Re: Gym and Buddhism

Post by DNS » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:54 pm

D1W1 wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:39 am
Say you are eating 2-3 eggs per day, that is 60-90 eggs per month or 1080 eggs per year. That means more eggs from eggs industry and more killing of male chicks.
I fail to see "moderation" in this eating habit. Do I miss something? Thank you.
That is a different topic than moderation in food. You are talking about the type of food, if one should eat eggs or not due to ethical reasons. That is probably more appropriate for the great vegetarian debate. Vegans do not eat eggs for that reason and other reasons too. I heard on the news that some egg farms are stopping the process of grinding the male chicks up and are now saving them to be reared, although most likely will still end up in the slaughter house one day.

One of the arguments in favor of eating eggs (from ethical consideration) is that one is choosing to eat eggs, not the meat and that it was not your intention for them to grind up the male chicks, it just happens to be the custom at some egg farms, where your intention is simply to eat an unfertilized egg.

D1W1
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Meat consumption and first precept

Post by D1W1 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:09 am

Hi guys,

Is there bad karma from eating meat, is eating meat breaking the first precept?
Sorry if the question sounds silly. Thanks.

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Stiphan
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Re: Meat consumption and first precept

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:41 am

I don't think it's either yet I'm vegetarian soon to go vegan. Why? I just don't want to participate in such a vicious cycle. Even though you may be a passive user, you are still a participant in that cycle of immense harm to animals.

No, thanks. I feel my conscience is somewhat clearer. But I don't judge omnivores and I don't think it's bad kamma or breaking the first precept because you are not killing the animals yourself - you are only consuming them. Still, by consuming them, I believe you are increasing demand for meat and thus the cruel culling and merciless slaughter of innocent creatures.

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pilgrim
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Re: Meat consumption and first precept

Post by pilgrim » Mon Dec 18, 2017 8:34 am

D1W1 wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 6:09 am
Hi guys,

Is there bad karma from eating meat, is eating meat breaking the first precept?
Sorry if the question sounds silly. Thanks.
Brief answer- No. One normally eats meat from dead animals. Thus whatever killing is already done.

"Taking life, torture, mutilation too,
binding, stealing, telling lies, and fraud;
deceit, adultery, and studying crooked views:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Those people of desires and pleasures unrestrained,
greedy for tastes with impurity mixed in,
of nihilistic views, unstable, hard to train:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

The rough, the cruel, backbiters and betrayers,
those void of compassion, extremely arrogant,
the miserly, to others never giving anything:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Who’s angry, obstinate, hostile and vain,
deceitful, envious, a boastful person too,
full of oneself, with the wicked intimate:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Those of evil ways, defaulters on debts,
imposters, slanderers, deceitful in their dealings,
vile men who commit evil deeds in this world:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Those people unrestrained for living beings here,
taking others’ property, on injury intent,
immoral, harsh and cruel, for others no respect:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat.

Towards others greedy or hateful—they attack them,
ever on misdemeanours bent,
they go to darkness after death;
such beings as this fall headlong into Hell:
this is carrion-stench, not the eating of meat."
~ Amagandha sutta, sN 2.2

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