the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dhammanando
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Dhammanando »

Santi253 wrote:Okay. What is the difference between a dietitian and a nutritionist?
It's explained by Dara O'Briain at 3:40

"Anyone can call themselves a 'nutritionist'. 'Dietician' is the legally protected term. 'Dietician' is like 'dentist'. 'Nutritionist' is like 'toothiologist'."

Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude »

Santi253 wrote:Dr. Dean Ornish's diet is one of the few diets clinically proven to reverse heart disease:
I very much doubt that. He is no pionner, however he is a very competent salesman.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -is-wrong/
But what about the claims Ornish makes about the success of his own diet—do they hold up to scrutiny? Not exactly. His famous 1990 Lifestyle Heart trial involved a total of 48 patients with heart disease. Twenty-eight were assigned to his low-fat, plant-based diet and 20 were given usual cardiac care. After one year those following his diet were more likely to see a regression in their atherosclerosis.
But here’s the thing: The patients who followed his diet also quit smoking, started exercising and attended stress management training. The people in the control group were told to do none of these things. It’s hardly surprising that quitting smoking, exercising, reducing stress and dieting—when done together—improves heart health. But fact that the participants were making all of these lifestyle changes means that we cannot make any inferences about the effect of the diet alone./quote]
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Of course, it has to be holistic, as to include exercise and non-consumption of alcohol and tobacco, and we shouldn't take every diet's claim at face value.

The only fair way we can judge a diet is how it compares to other diets, especially in how it compares to the typical American diet:
Until recently, when we started exporting the S.A.D. (standard American diet) to the rest of the world, the majority of people on the planet were on a plant-based diet, so historically it's not radical.

Caldwell Esselstyn, M.D., of the Cleveland Clinic and cardiologist Dean Ornish, M.D., in California proved years ago using sequential arteriograms that this diet reverses heart disease. Esselstyn says that what should be considered radical is going in the hospital, having your chest cut open and the blockages in your arteries bypassed, risking serious complications including death, and incurring tens of thousands of dollars in medical expenses.

Plant-based nutrition has no side effects, costs nothing, and treats and reverses the cause of heart disease (atherosclerosis, aka hardening of the arteries), extends life and within days improves quality of life (e.g. angina resolves).
http://www.postindependent.com/news/rum ... strictive/
Most diets that the public hears about are stupid, because they over-promise quick weight loss. Some other diets, which don't make such exaggerated claims of quick results, are instead for long-term health, to prevent diseases like diabetes and heart disease.

Please keep in mind that the above article is not trying to sell anything. Dr. Feinsinger is offering diet advice as a free service to the public:
Dr. Feinsinger, who retired from Glenwood Medical Associates after 42 years as a family physician, now has a nonprofit Center For Prevention and Treatment of Disease Through Nutrition. He is available for free consultations about heart attack prevention and any other medical concerns. Call 970-379-5718 for an appointment. For questions about his columns, email him at [email protected].
http://www.postindependent.com/news/rum ... strictive/
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

If you want to know who only cares about selling books, Dr. Robert Atkins was an incredible opportunist:



He made millions of dollars selling books that recommended a high-fat, low-carb diet, without using that money to actually fund studies that his recommendations reversed heart disease. Now we see this all over again, with the keto and paleo diets.

Is it any coincidence that all the major promoters of these low-carb, high-fat diets are overweight, despite following their own recommendations?
https://www.camanoislandmills.com/diet- ... still-fat/

I am not saying this to hurt or shame anyone. Instead, the public deserves to know they've been deceived, while these diet authors get rich from telling people on bad diets whatever they want to hear.
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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Have there been any studies of the atkins diet?
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

chownah wrote:Have there been any studies of the atkins diet?
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
If there are, I'd like to see how their results for heart disease and diabetes compare to a plant-based diet. I'd also like to know if they were funded by or connected to the meat and dairy industries.

Also, the studies are illegitimate if they use an unfair methodology from the beginning:
In one of the major studies,3 before the diet began the participants’ diets were 33% fat; the goal was to reduce to 30% fat – but in the end their “low-fat” diets actually contained 33% of the calories as fat (the same as before they started) – so where is the low-fat part of the comparison alleged by the title of the article? – “A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.”

3) Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L. A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl ... kinsPF.htm
I'm sorry to say this again, but the promoters of high-fat diets are deceiving the public. The promoters of a low-fat, plant-based diet, on the other hand, are telling people what they don't want to hear, because they don't want to make such a dramatic change in their diet.
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binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular »

Santi253 wrote:The only fair way we can judge a diet is how it compares to other diets, especially in how it compares to the typical American diet:
That's sad and grossly ineffective.
I would think that the best way to judge a diet is to try it oneself for a while, and see what happens. Or, you know, use your common sense ...
If one waits for science to figure things out and for the scientists to become unanimous about something, one will most likely die before that happens.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:The only fair way we can judge a diet is how it compares to other diets, especially in how it compares to the typical American diet:
That's sad and grossly ineffective.
I would think that the best way to judge a diet is to try it oneself for a while, and see what happens. Or, you know, use your common sense ...
If one waits for science to figure things out and for the scientists to become unanimous about something, one will most likely die before that happens.
The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.

Just as I wouldn't trust in a medication unless it were scientifically tested, I wouldn't trust a scientifically untested diet either. Rather than weight loss, I'm doing this for long-term health.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

This information is from Dr. William Sears, one of the nation's leading pediatricians, on the health benefits of a vegetarian diet:
Are vegetarians really healthier in the long-run?

Absolutely, positively, yes! Even though nutritionists seem to disagree on many topics, all agree that plant-eaters and fish-eaters tend to live longer and healthier lives than do animal eaters. In every way, the brocolli-munchers tend to be healthier than the beef-eaters:

Vegetarians have a lower incidence of cancer, especially colon, stomach, mouth, esophagus, lung, prostate, bladder, and breast cancers. The protection against intestinal cancers is probably due to the fiber in a plant-based diet.

In fact, vegetarians have a lower incidence of nearly all intestinal diseases and discomforts, especially constipation and diverticulosis. The phytonutrients in plant foods, especially antioxidants, flavanoids, and carotenoids, may also contribute to protection against cancer.

Plant food is better for your heart, since it is low in cholesterol and saturated fat, and high in fiber. Vegetarians have a lower incidence of cardiovascular disease, namely heart attacks and stroke.

A study of 25,000 Seventh-Day Adventists showed that these vegetarians had one-third the risk of dying from cardiovascular disease than a comparable meat-eating population.

Another study showed that death from cardiovascular disease was fifty percent less in vegetarians. These statistics may be the result of more than just diet; vegetarians tend to have healthier overall lifestyles.

Plant eaters are much less likely to get diabetes than animal eaters.
Vegetarians tend to see better.

An eye disease called macular degeneration, which is deterioration of the retina leading to blindness, occurs less frequently in vegetarians.

Vegetarians tend to be leaner than meat eaters, even those who skin their chicken and trim the fat off their steak; and, in general, leaner persons tend to be healthier. Being lean does not mean being skinny. It means having a low percentage of body fat. Muscular weight-lifters tend to be lean, though no one would call them skinny. You don’t have to “beef up” at the dinner table to make muscle.

Even the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s dietary guidelines recommend eating more vegetables and grains and less meat, despite pressure from the politically-connected meat industry to promote meat.
https://www.askdrsears.com/topics/feedi ... arian-diet
Those on a plant-based diet are less likely to develop diabetes and heart-disease, my two biggest concerns about my personal health.
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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote:Have there been any studies of the atkins diet?
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
If there are, ............
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
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Mkoll
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Mkoll »

Man, this thread has turned into a real kale fire.

:mrgreen:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Mkoll wrote:Man, this thread has turned into a real kale fire.

:mrgreen:
I hate kale, though I might drink it mixed up in a juice.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

chownah wrote:
Santi253 wrote:
chownah wrote:Have there been any studies of the atkins diet?
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
If there are, ............
https://www.google.co.th/#q=Have+there+ ... 9748603591
chownah
Santi253 wrote: Also, the studies are illegitimate if they use an unfair methodology from the beginning:
In one of the major studies,3 before the diet began the participants’ diets were 33% fat; the goal was to reduce to 30% fat – but in the end their “low-fat” diets actually contained 33% of the calories as fat (the same as before they started) – so where is the low-fat part of the comparison alleged by the title of the article? – “A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity.”

3) Samaha FF, Iqbal N, Seshadri P, Chicano KL, Daily DA, McGrory J, Williams T, Williams M, Gracely EJ, Stern L. A low-carbohydrate as compared with a low-fat diet in severe obesity. N Engl J Med. 2003 May 22;348(21):2074-81.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2004nl ... kinsPF.htm
I also can't stress enough that I would tend to not trust a study funded by or linked to the meat or dairy industries.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

I would also like to reiterate that I am not an animal rights activist, and that I've chosen to pursue a plant-based diet mostly for health reasons.

The Buddha in the Pali canon taught that you shouldn't kill animals for meat or eat meat which was specifically killed for you, but he never said we should abstain from all animal products whatsoever:
Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison. These are the five types of business that a lay follower should not engage in. - The Buddha, The Vanijja Sutta
Monks, I allow you fish and meat that are quite pure in three respects: if they are not seen, heard or suspected to have been killed on purpose for a monk. But you should not knowingly make use of meat killed on purpose for you. - The Buddha, The Book of Discipline
Some vegans are so extreme, they care more about animals than humans:
The most vociferous and probably largest of these groups in the United States, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA), declares that "animals are not ours to use - for food, clothing, entertainment, or experimentation." PETA calls xenotransplantation "Frankenstein science" and in June 1999, formally asked the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) to ban all xenotransplantation experiments.

On the other side is the argument that human needs trump animal rights.

AIDS patient Jeff Getty, who underwent an experimental xenotransplantation of baboon bone marrow in 1995, contended in a 1996 letter to the Wall Street Journal, "You can't be for AIDS, breast cancer and diabetes research and also support militant animal rights groups" - because animal research is essential to scientific progress against disease.
http://apps.engr.utexas.edu/ethics/orga ... hxeno2.cfm
The Buddha, on the other hand, taught the middle way. In reality, PETA kills more animals than they save:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_fo ... er_animals
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Another thing is, if you want to have fat in your diet, studies have shown that plant fats are healthier than animal fats:


Is there anything to the theory that coconut oil is good for our health?
As we know now that the human body is made of natural saturated fats, we need to add it back into our diets. The medium chain fatty acids found in coconut oil do not raise blood sugar and reduces hypoglycemic symptoms. These fats do not circulate in the blood streams and are immediately used up for energy. Whereas vegetable oils depress thyroid functions, lowering metabolic active unlike coconut oil. The bio directional affect of coconut oil heals metabolic disorders, helping you to lose weight. The Journal ofIndian Medical Association has reported that since Indians have abandoned traditional oils - like coconut oils, mustard oil and pure ghee - the prevalence of type 2 diabetes have increased and is on the rise.
http://food.ndtv.com/health/why-saturat ... es-1666704
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