the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

The rules might be different for lay people, but I think that, based on what the Buddha taught in the Pali canon, all monastics who don't rely on alms for food should be vegetarian.

The Buddha taught that killing animals for food violates the first precept, and that monks shouldn't accept meats as alms if specifically killed on their behalf. Therefore, if monks and nuns are not dependent on alms for food, they should ideally be vegetarian.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.
Oh well. For someone who is completely out of touch with their own body ...
I've lost seven pounds in the last week on a plant-based diet. And unlike on the keto or paleo diets, I am not clogging my arteries in the process. I am not starving myself. If anything, I am eating more often than I did before, but healthy foods like whole wheat pasta and tortillas, potatoes, romaine lettuce, etc. This is not for short-term weight loss, but instead for my long-term health.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

chownah wrote:
binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.
Oh well. For someone who is completely out of touch with their own body ...
:goodpost:
I tried to come up with a response to that post but couldn't find a clear and concise way to explain....and you have nailed it....thanks.
chownah
This is from The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the nation's largest organization of food and nutrition professionals:
The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals.
https://www.andeal.org/vault/2440/web/JADA_VEG.pdf
This is from Quack Watch on the benefits of a vegetarian diet:
Leanness
Vegetarians tend to be more physically active than nonvegetarians. Higher intakes of dietary fiber may decrease absorption of food by 2-3 % and contribute to a feeling of fullness.

Lower blood pressure
Vegans, who consume a diet very low in fat, tend to have blood pressures 10 to15 mm Hg lower than nonvegetarians of similar age and gender. Much of this effect appears to be related to body weight rather than other dietary variables.

Lower serum cholesterol
Total blood cholesterol levels are lower in vegans than in lactovegetarians or nonvegetarians. Whole-fat milk products and eggs tend to raise serum blood lipids due to their saturated fat and cholesterol content. Vegetarians often use non- or lowfat milk, and vegans use no milk or eggs at all

Less colon cancer
Diets high in meat may increase the incidence of colon cancer by increasing the fecal concentration of various carcinogens. A high intake of animal fat also may increase the risk of colon cancer. It is also possible that carcinogens are produced by cooking meat at very high temperatures.
https://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthProm ... arian.html
In comparison, Quack Watch's review of the Atkins diet was overall unfavorable:
Atkins advocated his diet for more than 30 years and stated that more than 60,000 patients treated at his center had used his diet as their primary protocol. However, he never published any study in which people who used his program were monitored over a period of several years. It would not have been difficult for him to compile simple data, but I have seen no evidence that did so.

Recent studies of up to two years have found that low-carbohydrate diets can produce modest weight loss and reduction in cardiac risk factors, which means that they are safer than previously thought. However, it has not yet been determined whether such diets are safe for long-term use or can reduce the incidence of coronary heart disease.

The popularity of low-carbohydrate diets has encouraged food companies to market low-carbohydrate foods for people who want to “watch their carbs.” Most of these foods are much higher in fat than the foods they are designed to replace. I believe that “low-carb” advertising is encouraging both dieters and nondieters to eat high-fat foods, which is exactly the opposite of what medical and nutrition authorities have been urging for decades.

Following a low-carbohydrate diet under medical supervision may make sense for some people, but a population-wide increase in fat consumption would not.
https://www.quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/lcd.html
Quack Watch is one of America's leading debunkers of bad medical advice and pseudoscience:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

Given the above scientific facts, having a continued debate here about this would be like arguing with a fundamentalist Christian who thinks God put dinosaur bones in the ground to test our faith in Genesis. Science does matter.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

This might bother people who are strictly vegetarian, but I am not bothered by eating foods like cheeses that might contain trace amounts of animal ingredients like enzymes. The idea of eating Jello-O, though, is now gross to me.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

It seems to me that most of the people who are really into finding the scientific facts about various diets are usually unhealthy people. It seems to me that people who have overall really good health mostly just figure it out for themselves.
chownan
binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular »

chownah wrote:It seems to me that most of the people who are really into finding the scientific facts about various diets are usually unhealthy people. It seems to me that people who have overall really good health mostly just figure it out for themselves.
Yes ...
And microwaving does not qualify for cooking!
Last edited by binocular on Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude »

Santi253 wrote:
Thank you for posting something based on medical science, rather than personal whims or whatever might be supported by the food industries.
Based on the available evidence, the idea that meats and processed foods are no more a risk factor for illnesses like diabetes and heart disease than plant-based foods is so preposterous, that I am not going to further argue about it.
It is beyond me that you do not even seem to realize how you contradict yourself. This link you've applauded lyndon taylor for actually criticizes your beloved Ornish diet:
And one aspect of the diet—avoiding all added oils and even high-fat plant foods like avocados and nuts—isn't necessarily helpful, Dr. Willett notes. "There's lots of evidence that unsaturated fat lowers blood lipids such as cholesterol and reduces heart disease," he says. What's more, a low-fat diet is, by definition, a high-carbohydrate diet. These diets tend to promote the release of insulin, the hormone that regulates blood sugar levels. In people who aren't very physically active, high insulin levels send a signal that it's time to store fat, which can lead to weight gain.
Do you actually read the other posts and links posted here aside from your own? It really doesn't seem to be the case, and I get the feeling that anyone trying to discuss this with you is just wasting his time. You seem to sometimes discover things that were pointed out to you several days before, like when you remarked that vegetal oil is better than animal oil, which is something I had tried to draw your attention to a few postings earlier, to no avail of course... So: why are you here?
binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular »

lostitude wrote: Do you actually read the other posts and links posted here aside from your own? It really doesn't seem to be the case, and I get the feeling that anyone trying to discuss this with you is just wasting his time. You seem to sometimes discover things that were pointed out to you several days before, like when you remarked that vegetal oil is better than animal oil, which is something I had tried to draw your attention to a few postings earlier, to no avail of course... So: why are you here?
Crappy food can mess up one's mind big time. Maybe if he sticks to his new eating healthier programme, we might see some changes in his posting style in a couple of months.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

Image

I'm already experiencing results on a plant-based diet, both in my emotional and physical health. I will not be dissuaded by bloviators and naysayers. It takes a really sad person to want to hold others back. I brush my shoulders of you.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular »

Santi253 wrote:I'm already experiencing results on a plant-based diet, both in my emotional and physical health. I will not be dissuaded by bloviators and naysayers. It takes a really sad person to want to hold others back. I brush my shoulders of you.
You think we're holding you back?! Oh dear.
There's something you might want to brush off your shoulder, but it's not us.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

binocular wrote: There's something you might want to brush off your shoulder, but it's not us.
Is it the truckload of dung you're heaping at me?
Image
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular »

I'm sorry you feel that way.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude »

Santi253 wrote:Image

I'm already experiencing results on a plant-based diet, both in my emotional and physical health. I will not be dissuaded by bloviators and naysayers. It takes a really sad person to want to hold others back. I brush my shoulders of you.
If you feel we're holding you back here, then do feel free to stop making a show of your new nutritional dogmas. No one is forcing you to write nonsense here...
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 »

lostitude wrote:
Santi253 wrote:Image

I'm already experiencing results on a plant-based diet, both in my emotional and physical health. I will not be dissuaded by bloviators and naysayers. It takes a really sad person to want to hold others back. I brush my shoulders of you.
If you feel we're holding you back here, then do feel free to stop making a show of your new nutritional dogmas. No one is forcing you to write nonsense here...
Nope. I've already posted scientifically verified information from mainstream sources.
Santi253 wrote:Image
It's like a fundamentalist Christian telling me that God put dinosaur bones in the ground to test our faith.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

http://www.matthewsatori.tumblr.com
chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

binocular wrote:
chownah wrote:It seems to me that most of the people who are really into finding the scientific facts about various diets are usually unhealthy people. It seems to me that people who have overall really good health mostly just figure it out for themselves.
Yes ...
And microwaving does not qualify for cooking!
Yeah but they are great for reheating!

We shouldn't forget that there are alot of unhealthy people in the world who have not figured out how to eat a healthful diet. What are these people to do? We might think that if they in some way got more in touch with their bodies that the problem would be solved but we really have no evidence that this transition is possible. If people are unhealthy and they see that their diet seems to fit the idea of being unhealthy then doing some research on diet (which logically might include scientific stuff) seems like a good way forward for them. I think that at the same time they should look into how to be more intouch with their bodies in general through contemplation and physical activity....physical activity is very important too...and not just strenuous or aerobic activity but activity which develops sensitivity throughout the body.
chownah
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