the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths. What can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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DNS
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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:18 am

notself wrote: B12 only comes from animal products. Butter, milk and eggs all contain B12
The adult human only needs 2.4 micrograms of B12 per day and it is stored in the body. (1,000 micrograms equals one gram) Thus, a vegan could take supplements or simply eat one egg or cheese meal per month or so and get all the B12 they need.

There are some vegan sources (in limited amounts) that have B12 too, including tempeh, miso, sea vegetables, and nutritional yeast.

For lacto-ovo (dairy and eggs) vegetarians it is not an issue and they consume more than enough of B12 and other nutrients, with a balanced, healthy diet (limited amounts of junk food).

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Monkey Mind
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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Monkey Mind » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:22 am

Bubbabuddhist wrote:Image
My own experience: any veggie product that is supposed to simulate meat, like tofurkey, is just YUCKY. I prefer veggie food that acts like veggie food. I love garden burgers, but they never really claimed to be a meat substitute.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

Sutta Nipāta 3.710

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:37 am

Greetings,

I enjoy mock meat products.

A personal favourite are the ones that come in tins, in some variety of light sauce.

Cook some noodles, set them aside, heat the contents of the tin in a pan, add some chilies etc., pop noodles back into pan, stir and serve.

:woohoo:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:55 am

Monkey Mind wrote:
Bubbabuddhist wrote:Image
My own experience: any veggie product that is supposed to simulate meat, like tofurkey, is just YUCKY. I prefer veggie food that acts like veggie food. I love garden burgers, but they never really claimed to be a meat substitute.
tofurkey is not very good, but the Morning Star generally stuff is.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Prasadachitta » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:59 am

I love this stuff

Image
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Ben
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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Ben » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:37 pm

I still haven't recovered since you guys revealed that Buffalos don't have wings.
I'm gutted!

And what sort of depraved mind invents, or for that matter eats, tofurkey?
I actually made a de-diddly-liscious meal the other night. Its a chinese dish of battered cubes of tofu with mushrooms in a silky light sauce. It was excellent. Fit for a hungry Venerable Huifeng!
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by alan » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:09 pm

Take a look at Spirulina as a supplement. It's cheap and very healthful. Chlorella is also excellent. I take 3 grams a day.

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:39 pm

Alas, I had posted a plethora of my gourmet vegetarian recipes, many of which were four-alarm spicy, on esangha's vegetarian recipe forum. Including my vegetarian egg mcmuffin, blackened thai tofu, saitan medallions in mixed mushroom gravy, a full-course meal including dessert from a single spaghetti squash (LOL) and other masterpieces. Ah alas, alas.

J
Author of Redneck Buddhism: or Will You Reincarnate as Your Own Cousin?

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Sanghamitta » Tue Jan 12, 2010 4:25 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:I love this stuff

Image
I think quorn is far and away the best mock meat product, I gather though that there is a problem obtaining it in the US ? True ?

Tofu and other soy products ARE yucky. Soy beans themselves are nice though. And lentils and other beans and nuts are good sources of protein.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Prasadachitta » Tue Jan 12, 2010 6:51 pm

Sanghamitta wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:I love this stuff

Image
I think quorn is far and away the best mock meat product, I gather though that there is a problem obtaining it in the US ? True ?

Tofu and other soy products ARE yucky. Soy beans themselves are nice though. And lentils and other beans and nuts are good sources of protein.
I have no problem getting Quorn in San Francisco. A lot of the U.S. is pretty patchy when it comes to meat alternatives.

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Sanghamitta » Tue Jan 12, 2010 7:03 pm

Quorn is great. One of my daughters would not believe it wasnt real chicken. Its so much like meat that some hyperveggies would probably feel guilty.. :smile:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Tue Jan 12, 2010 8:28 pm

Quorn is easily obtainable everywhere I've lived in the US, from Deep South to Midwest. It's fungus by the way, for the soy-phobic.

It takes marinades very well. Quite absorbent. Cut your time down in fact from meat in your recipes or the quorn becomes over-saturated. It also works well batter-dipped, crumb rolled, tempuraed, shake-n-baked, blackened.

John R
The Galloping Gourmet of vegetarians

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Potato » Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:41 am

Quorn was developed from a soil fungus found in a British village in the 1960s. The claim on the label that it is "mushroom in origin" is misleading, because the soil fungus and mushrooms are both fungi in the same way that clams and humans are both animals -- no one would claim that clams and humans are similar.

I like of Boca Burgers and Morningstar Farm's Chipotle Black Bean Burgers, but meat substitutes are not a staple in my diet.

Vitamin B12 does not come from animals, it comes from bacteria. :)

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Ben » Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:30 am

Did someone say fungus?

My fungus of choice is truffle!

http://www.trufflesaustralis.com.au/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by jcsuperstar » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:46 am

Sanghamitta wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:I love this stuff

Image
I think quorn is far and away the best mock meat product, I gather though that there is a problem obtaining it in the US ? True ?

Tofu and other soy products ARE yucky. Soy beans themselves are nice though. And lentils and other beans and nuts are good sources of protein.
um tofu is amazing thank you

how could anything this guy is the god of not be amazing...

Image
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by dspiewak » Mon Jan 25, 2010 5:25 pm

I heard a Dhamma talk once in which the monk warned about vegetarianism - that it could lead to self-righteous behavior (e.g. looking down on non-vegetarians). I find it interesting that so many Theravada practitioners, who are not urged to give up meat, have done so anyway. I wonder if it's just a coincidence?

The hardest part for me was formulating a way to explain it to people. The truth is that I just don't have the heart for it anymore. When I see meat I have a very clear vision that there is flesh just like that inside me and the animals and people I love, and that vision doesn't seem to be going away with age. I tried going without meat, and it turns out I could do it, so I kept it up. This explanation does not translate well to casual conversation, though.

"I saw when we went to Big Uncle Porkchop's Meat Shack And More, you got the potato salad. Whatsa matter, you vegetarian?"
"Actually, yes."
"Mind if I ask what motivated you do give up meat?"
"Uh......."

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by BubbaBuddhist » Mon Jan 25, 2010 6:31 pm

I just tell people since I'm a vegetarian I don't have the strength to argue about it. :P

J
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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by DNS » Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:07 pm

dspiewak wrote:I heard a Dhamma talk once in which the monk warned about vegetarianism - that it could lead to self-righteous behavior (e.g. looking down on non-vegetarians).
Self-righteous attitudes and views are wrong, when done by vegetarians AND non-vegetarians. I have seem plenty of non-vegetarians get quite upset and even angry when vegetarians talk about not killing, eating healthy, etc.
I find it interesting that so many Theravada practitioners, who are not urged to give up meat, have done so anyway. I wonder if it's just a coincidence?
No coincidence. The Pali Canon is full of suggestions not to kill or cause to kill. I have compiled some of them here:

http://www.buddha316.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The key point is that vegetarianism is not required in Theravada Buddhism to be a Theravada Buddhist. However:

“Many people find that as they develop in the Dhamma that they have a natural tendency to move toward vegetarianism.”

(Good Question, Good Answer, 4th edition, by Ven. Dhammika)

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Ben » Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:24 pm

Hi Jon
Bubbabuddhist wrote:I just tell people since I'm a vegetarian I don't have the strength to argue about it. :P

J
I actually struggle to tell people I'm vegetarian. Technically, I'm probably not as I will eat whatever is offered if we go out. The last thing I want is for friends to go to extra effort and provide something vegetarian for me, when I think its healthier for me to just accept whatever is given.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Re: I'm a new vegetarian! Some questions...

Post by Kim OHara » Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:14 am

David N. Snyder wrote: The Pali Canon is full of suggestions not to kill or cause to kill. I have compiled some of them here:
http://www.buddha316.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nice resource, David. :thumbsup:
However, I wondered if it might actually be stronger if you deleted ""Whereas some ascetics and Brahmins, feeding on the food of the faithful, remain addicted to the enjoyment of stored-up goods such as food, drink, clothing, carriages, beds, perfumes and meat, the ascetic Gotama refrains from such enjoyment."
Brahmajala Sutra, Digha Nikaya"
It seems to me to be deprecating all sense pleasures.
By putting it here you're almost suggesting that becoming vegetarian is a step towards asceticism.
:juggling:

Kim

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