the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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cjmacie
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Re: Becoming vegetarian

Post by cjmacie »

A good author re nutrition, health, science, etc. is T. Collin Campbell. Googling the name brings up a lot. Articles, books, etc.

Recent book is good: "Whole: Rethinking the Science of Nutrition"

His thing is basically "plant-based", but he's not religious about that. He's also not that shy about controversy; is known to go at it vs those who promote extreme stuff like anti-carb, e.g. paleo-diet.

He did a lot of the formative science of the last 50 years. One interesting point, based on his fundamental research, being that, given a balanced diet with a good variety of natural foods, the body finds there, picks and chooses what it needs. Loading the body with supplements (e.g. vit-a,b,c,...) or lots of certain other specific ingredients, e.g. following fads, or the monthly newsletter from your neighborhood health-food store, doesn't mean the body will use it. In fact trying such force-feeding may be damaging.

Another well-informed (and humorous) writer is David L. Katz. e.g. a great article at: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/822731
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ECS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by ECS »

In my current mind Buddhism is simply the natural process realizing your existence , realizing your cause of existence ......is not of what you are eating , is not of what you should eat , is not of what you should not eat ... but is simply realizing the desire you eat , realizing the emotion while you eating .....the emotion is you .....simply Buddhism realizing you not what you should be .
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

ECS, I am glad to read that we are not what we eat. I never liked the idea of being 25 percent meatballs and 75 percent spaghetti by total volume!

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A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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Chula
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Chula »

I was raised lacto-vegetarian but have long wanted to become a vegan. I had it as one of my new year resolutions and have largely kept to it with some adjustments. I probably should call myself a semi-vegan though - since I eat full vegan at home and when I cook, but in cases where I'm visiting family or friends and they offer me lacto-vegetarian I don't refuse it. I've found this to be the simplest way of going about things.

I also took up cooking more seriously with this change, and I've been amazed at the great vegan cooking tutorials available online. I've subscribed to multiple useful vegan cooking youtube channels that I can link if anyone is interested. My whole family is already lacto-vegetarian, and they respect my choice so they also try to accommodate it, while toying with it themselves.
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padmini
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by padmini »

I think this is a very interesting debate and I would like to thank all the knowledgeable people who gave insights into this matter.

Personally I think that how we treat animals for meat, eggs and milk (or even for entertainment and so-called "research") in Western society is completely unwholesome and compassion-less, that's why I try my best to avoid supporting these practices.

Just as much as I try to avoid products that I know have harmed people or entire communities in their production process.

I don't think there's a "right" or "wrong" view, but I do think we as lay Buddhists should really think about the consequences of our actions -- and of our shopping and eating habits.
The Buddha's path is simple and meant for ordinary people; anyone with goodwill and determination can follow its steps toward freedom of heart and mind
-- Ven. Ayya Khema
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Ron-The-Elder
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Ron-The-Elder »

Hi, padmini:

What you say is true, but humans have limited experience when it comes to consequences, because of our short life-spans, cultural, and species biases. If it is true that humans experience many lifetimes as different creatures as divulged in The Jataka Tales, something difficult to verify and validate for ourselves since most of us are not fully unbound and released as enlightened Buddhas, we would benefit by remembering such life experiences as those different creatures so as to develop understanding and compassion for them as well as for human family, tribe, nation and species. :hug:
What Makes an Elder? :
A head of gray hairs doesn't mean one's an elder. Advanced in years, one's called an old fool.
But one in whom there is truth, restraint, rectitude, gentleness,self-control, he's called an elder, his impurities disgorged, enlightened.
-Dhammpada, 19, translated by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
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cjmacie
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by cjmacie »

Just to throw some gasoline (petrol) on the smoldering embers here: :jumping:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ita ... 3be07d446b

or (lots of different coverage this week):
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619
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Cittasanto
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Cittasanto »

cjmacie wrote:Just to throw some gasoline (petrol) on the smoldering embers here: :jumping:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ita ... 3be07d446b

or (lots of different coverage this week):
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-37034619
As both links point out it is due to a number of a vegan diet attributed child malnourishment cases that have happened in Italy. And as is also mentioned opposition to the law at this time argue education is better than punishment.

Today the sort of news that led upto this law being drafted should not be happening due to all the supplements added to foods.... And although I disagree with the law and agree education is the way forward, I understand where this law is coming from and the need for the government to do something. Hopefully, the proposed law will fail but have the benefit of causing parents to better educate themselves, until educational information, recipes... can be published to aid parents.

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Cittasanto
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah »

Better education for parents is a good thing. Why limit it to vegan diets? Lots of parents feed their children stuff that boggles the mind.....but humanity keeps on stumbling along anyway....same as it ever was...
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Virgo
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Virgo »

Is vegan food better than regular food? Let us find out.



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TRobinson465
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by TRobinson465 »

David N. Snyder wrote:I believe a vegetarian diet can be either unwholesome, neutral, or wholesome.

If the intention is for self-aggrandizement, to belittle and ridicule omnivores, then that would be unwholesome.

If the intention is only for eating healthy and nutritious diet, then perhaps neutral kamma, neither good nor bad.

If the intention is to contribute to less killing and harm to animals; then that would be wholesome. (Referring to lay people, not monks who receive what is placed in alms bowls.)
This summarizes my opinion on the great vegetarian debate perfectly lol. But also, i think it really isnt something that important in the overall practice.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

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Luca123
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Re: Does been a vegetarian mean gods are with you?

Post by Luca123 »

David N. Snyder wrote:I believe a vegetarian diet can be either unwholesome, neutral, or wholesome.

If the intention is for self-aggrandizement, to belittle and ridicule omnivores, then that would be unwholesome.

If the intention is only for eating healthy and nutritious diet, then perhaps neutral kamma, neither good nor bad.

If the intention is to contribute to less killing and harm to animals; then that would be wholesome. (Referring to lay people, not monks who receive what is placed in alms bowls.)
mature Buddhists think not just of the effects their actions have on themselves but the effects they have on others also, and whether one kills an animal with one's own hands or buys meat from a supermarket, in both cases a sentient being is dead as a result. Consequently, there are Buddhists who feel that by not eating meat they are helping to lessen some of the cruelty in the world, and to this degree vegetarianism is more consistent with the general spirit of the first Precept.
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http://buddhisma2z.com/content.php?id=442
I think your comment expresses a point of view based only on the desires of human beings without taking into consideration the even more stringent desire and will to life of animals unnecessarily and brutally killed to appeal the stomach of human beings
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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor »

Yeah, if you do a good thing for bad reasons, you're still doing a good thing.
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

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dhammarelax
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by dhammarelax »

Dear Friends

If we consider that animals are killed because we are eating meat hence a vegetarian diet would produce a better Karma, would it be also true for example that if we consider the wars in the middle east waged for oil then using electricity generated using it or driving a car or riding a car would generate unwholesome kamma? it seems that many articles that we consume every day can have an origin that involves unwholesome action, even eating vegetables means that insects have to be killed and if insects are killed then the animals that feed on them are also killed, it seems that the Buddha does not take in account this long consequences but he rather focuses on the immediate action/intention.

If the Buddha would have thought that a vegetarian diet is better then why did not instruct the lay people to follow one?

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Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
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DNS
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by DNS »

dhammarelax wrote: If we consider that animals are killed because we are eating meat hence a vegetarian diet would produce a better Karma, would it be also true for example that if we consider the wars in the middle east waged for oil then using electricity generated using it or driving a car or riding a car would generate unwholesome kamma?
No, because it is not the direct intent. However, it might produce wholesome kamma if the intent is to have less wars, less of a carbon footprint, etc. It is always a good idea to consume less fossil fuel, energy, etc for the sake of the environment. This does not mean those who consume are doing something unwholesome, but it is still a good idea to conserve and if that is the intent, then yes, there could be wholesome kamma generated.
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