the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Justsit
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Justsit »

Santi253 wrote:
Justsit wrote: If OP is considering becoming a strict vegetarian (that is, not a lacto-ovo vegetarian)
That would be vegan, not vegetarian, right? I am a strict vegetarian, in terms of not eating meat or fish. I even stopped buying sour cream and yogurt with gelatin in it.
A vegetarian that eats no meat/meat products but does consume dairy products and eggs is a lacto-ovo vegetarian; one who does not include any of those products is a strict vegetarian. Technically, a vegan is a strict vegetarian who also refrains from the use of any animal products, such a leather, although the term is commonly used to refer to the dietary restrictions only. At least that's my understanding.
Caodemarte
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Re: Vegetarian

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Santi253 wrote:...What I did say is the Buddha taught that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat or to profit from the killing of animals for meat, which is why his monk disciples could only eat meat with the knowledge that it wasn't slaughtered on their behalf...
Not to drag this out, but the references you provide do not say this. They say that monks should not be in business, including butchery, and may meat if it was not slaughtered specifically for them. I don't see a sutta prohibition on lay butchers, etc. or even a prohibition on monks knowingly eating monks. If you or anyone had such references I would be grateful for them.
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DNS
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Re: Vegetarian

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Caodemarte wrote:
Santi253 wrote:...What I did say is the Buddha taught that it's misconduct to kill animals for meat or to profit from the killing of animals for meat, which is why his monk disciples could only eat meat with the knowledge that it wasn't slaughtered on their behalf...
Not to drag this out, but the references you provide do not say this. They say that monks should not be in business, including butchery, and may meat if it was not slaughtered specifically for them. I don't see a sutta prohibition on lay butchers, etc. or even a prohibition on monks knowingly eating monks. If you or anyone had such references I would be grateful for them.
prohibition on monks knowingly eating monks
Human flesh is not allowed, even if offered (Mahavagga VI.23.10-15).
I don't see a sutta prohibition on lay butchers
It is implied, actually more than implied in passages where the Buddha or one of his chief disciples reports about seeing ghostly type beings who are suffering as a “skeleton” or a “piece of flesh” or another woeful existence and being tormented by crows and other animals. The Buddha reports that these beings are suffering in these states because of a past life as a butcher of cattle or pigs or sheep (Samyutta Nikaya 19.1, Vinaya, Suttavibhanga 3.105). And then in other passages about the prohibition of a trade in the business of meat.
Caodemarte
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Caodemarte »

[quote="David N. Snyder]

Human flesh is not allowed, even if offered (Mahavagga VI.23.10-15).
I don't see a sutta prohibition on lay butchers
It is implied, actually more than implied in passages where the Buddha or one of his chief disciples reports about seeing ghostly type beings.......[/quote]

Thanks, David. Being a potential source, I am especially happy that canabalism by monks is not allowed in the suttas.

I have no doubt that being a butcher was generally considered a lowly occupation (with kammic consequences as meat eating itself may have), like a public executioner, especially by non-Buddhists concerned with ritual purity. I am looking for a prohibition, not so much implications or interpretations. Heavy or light! :tongue:
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Nicolas
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Re: Vegetarian

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Caodemarte wrote:I have no doubt that being a butcher was generally considered a lowly occupation (with kammic consequences as meat eating itself may have), like a public executioner, especially by non-Buddhists concerned with ritual purity. I am looking for a prohibition, not so much implications or interpretations. Heavy or light! :tongue:
My understanding is that the Buddha does not prohibit laypeople to do anything, just gives them recommendations, as he has no "dominion" over them. When it comes to the sangha of monks and nuns, there are prohibitions (with consequences, etc.), because the sangha is lead by the Buddha.
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DNS
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by DNS »

Caodemarte wrote: I have no doubt that being a butcher was generally considered a lowly occupation (with kammic consequences as meat eating itself may have), like a public executioner, especially by non-Buddhists concerned with ritual purity. I am looking for a prohibition, not so much implications or interpretations. Heavy or light! :tongue:
Okay, here's a direct one, not light and not implied, just a direct prohibition:

“Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.” Anguttara Nikaya 5.177
Caodemarte
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Caodemarte »

David N. Snyder wrote:
Caodemarte wrote: I have no doubt that being a butcher was generally considered a lowly occupation (with kammic consequences as meat eating itself may have), like a public executioner, especially by non-Buddhists concerned with ritual purity. I am looking for a prohibition, not so much implications or interpretations. Heavy or light! :tongue:
Okay, here's a direct one, not light and not implied, just a direct prohibition:

“Monks, a lay follower should not engage in five types of business. Which five? Business in weapons, business in human beings, business in meat, business in intoxicants, and business in poison.” Anguttara Nikaya 5.177

Yes, this is a prohibition of engaging in the business of meat selling (presumably including butchering as a business, not the peasant farmer) or weapons dealing, etc. for profit. There are also prohibitions against animal sacrifice and the whole ritual (as opposed to moral) purity gig as well as the shift to the importance of intention in kamma from which people draw conclusions and mplications. I am looking for a sutta reference quoting the Buddha as saying that it is forbidden for lay followers to eat meat (hopefully canibalism is forbidden for the lay as well as monks!) and secondarily one against lay people killing (butchering, fishing, hunting, etc.) animals to eat.

I am not arguing against vegetarianism or anything else. Just trying to find some references to Buddha's words as recorded in the Pali canon. I can't find them.
Last edited by Caodemarte on Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

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David N. Snyder wrote: It is implied, actually more than implied in passages where the Buddha or one of his chief disciples reports about seeing ghostly type beings who are suffering as a “skeleton” or a “piece of flesh” or another woeful existence and being tormented by crows and other animals. The Buddha reports that these beings are suffering in these states because of a past life as a butcher of cattle or pigs or sheep (Samyutta Nikaya 19.1, Vinaya, Suttavibhanga 3.105). And then in other passages about the prohibition of a trade in the business of meat.
Thank you. I respect your knowledge when it comes to these topics.

While I don't judge others for eating meat, I would like to be as honest as possible about what the Buddha taught. I prepare and serve meat to my wife and children, because that's what they eat. I don't judge them for it.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 »

Justsit wrote:
Santi253 wrote:
Justsit wrote: If OP is considering becoming a strict vegetarian (that is, not a lacto-ovo vegetarian)
That would be vegan, not vegetarian, right? I am a strict vegetarian, in terms of not eating meat or fish. I even stopped buying sour cream and yogurt with gelatin in it.
A vegetarian that eats no meat/meat products but does consume dairy products and eggs is a lacto-ovo vegetarian; one who does not include any of those products is a strict vegetarian. Technically, a vegan is a strict vegetarian who also refrains from the use of any animal products, such a leather, although the term is commonly used to refer to the dietary restrictions only. At least that's my understanding.
I thought about going vegan, but it's harder to get enough protein and B12 that way.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Mkoll
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Mkoll »

Santi253 wrote:
Justsit wrote:
Santi253 wrote:That would be vegan, not vegetarian, right? I am a strict vegetarian, in terms of not eating meat or fish. I even stopped buying sour cream and yogurt with gelatin in it.
A vegetarian that eats no meat/meat products but does consume dairy products and eggs is a lacto-ovo vegetarian; one who does not include any of those products is a strict vegetarian. Technically, a vegan is a strict vegetarian who also refrains from the use of any animal products, such a leather, although the term is commonly used to refer to the dietary restrictions only. At least that's my understanding.
I thought about going vegan, but it's harder to get enough protein and B12 that way.
B12 is easy, just take a supplement. It's stored long-term in the body and your reserves coming from an omnivorous diet would last for years even if you didn't consume any in that time: https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/002403.htm. Protein is a little harder, but still easily doable.

Meeting nutritional requirements is not the hard part of eating vegan if you do some basic nutrition research. Following the restrictions you've set for yourself long-term is.

Justsit's understanding of the terms is mine as well.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 »

Mkoll wrote: B12 is easy, just take a supplement.
I take a multivitamin everyday that includes 100% daily value of B12.

When it comes to supplements, however, is the B12 absorbed by the body as well as the B12 found in dairy products?
Mkoll wrote: Following the restrictions you've set for yourself long-term is.
Since the Buddha, as far as I know, never taught anything against consuming eggs and dairy products, I don't feel the need to be that restrictive.

Also, egg whites and non-fat dairy products are not nearly as bad for human health as meat is, and they are a good source of nutrition as well.
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Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 »

Does anyone here eat avocados? Are they a healthy source of dietary fat? I realize that they are high in fat content, but I've cut fat almost entirely from my diet.
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Mkoll
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Mkoll »

Santi253 wrote:
Mkoll wrote: B12 is easy, just take a supplement.
I take a multivitamin everyday that includes 100% daily value of B12.

When it comes to supplements, however, is the B12 absorbed by the body as well as the B12 found in dairy products?
Mkoll wrote: Following the restrictions you've set for yourself long-term is.
Since the Buddha, as far as I know, never taught anything against consuming eggs and dairy products, I don't feel the need to be that restrictive.

Also, egg whites and non-fat dairy products are not nearly as bad for human health as meat is, and they are a good source of nutrition as well.
Not sure if it's absorbed as efficiently, but it's definitely absorbed.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 »

It's interesting that, other than fish, all the foods on this list are vegetarian:

11 Foods To Eat If You're Constantly Hungry That Are Healthy & Filling
https://www.bustle.com/articles/171601- ... hy-filling

One of the biggest myths about vegetarianism is that vegetarian foods are unsatisfying.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: Vegetarian

Post by Santi253 »

The available science suggests that plant fats are healthier than animal fats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKYBUcGmwj8

After about a month of strictly limiting the fat in my diet, I am adding back fat with whole plant foods like nuts and avocados, rather than from animal fats and extracted vegetable oils.

This article shows that average fat intake of vegans is about the same as non-vegans, yet their cholesterol levels are much lower:
http://jacknorrisrd.com/percentage-of-fat-in-the-diet/

This suggests to me that I don't need to worry as much as I have so far about limiting plant fats in my diet. What matters more is cutting out the animal fats.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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