the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:29 am

lostitude wrote: If you take Ornish's recommendations to not exceed 10% fat, then it means, based on an average 2000kcal daily intake, that no more than 200 kcal should come from fat. That's roughly about 20g of fat per day.
The 10% fat consumption is recommended for those who already have heart disease. For preventing heart disease, Dr. Ornish recommends 20% calories from fat:
The Reversal Diet. This diet is for those who already have heart disease. It has less than 10% of total calories from fat.
The Prevention Diet. This diet is for those who do not have heart disease or high cholesterol. It allows for no more than 20% fat.
http://health.howstuffworks.com/wellnes ... n-diet.htm
lostitude wrote: Do you know what 20g of fat look like? It's slighly more than a spoonful. Supposed to cover 3 to 4 meals.
Limiting fat consumption to that extent is relatively easy for someone on a plant-based diet.
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lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:38 am

Santi253 wrote:
lostitude wrote:
lostitude wrote: Do you know what 20g of fat look like? It's slighly more than a spoonful. Supposed to cover 3 to 4 meals.
Limiting fat consumption to that extent is relatively easy for someone on a plant-based diet.
What you don't seem to understand is that you need fat to be healthy.
Limiting yourself to 20g of fat means that a very small proportion will be unsaturated, which is the fat you need to lower triglycerides and cholesterol. Just a spoonful of olive oil, for example, is already 15g. And that's not enough. Far from it.
Again, how are you going to cover your needs in EPA and DHA if you get less than 20g of fat per day? Do you know what EPA and DHA are? Linoleic acid? Alpha-linolenic acid? Apparently you don't, so my question is: why are you not looking those up?
Those are fats that lower cholesterol and triglyceride levels, on top of being essential for your health. A lack of those has been suspected to contribute to neurodegenerative diseases such as Alzheimers. All of your body's cells are enclosed in a membrane made of fatty acids. Without fat, you can't live.

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:41 am

lostitude wrote: Limiting yourself to 20g of fat
That's necessary for reversing heart disease for someone who already has it.
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lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:45 am

Besides, are you not bothered by the fact that cardiovascular diseases in Mediterranean countries are much less frequent than in the US, despite the fact that we eat fat and meat and dairy?
Have you heard of the Mediterranean diet and its protective effect on cardiovascular diseases? Those islands in Greece where practically no one suffers from atherosclerosis?

Do you think they eat less than 20% of fat?

lostitude
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lostitude » Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:46 am

Santi253 wrote:
lostitude wrote: Limiting yourself to 20g of fat
That's necessary for reversing heart disease for someone who already has it.
That's what you want to believe. But that's all it is, a belief.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by lyndon taylor » Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:06 am

18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:35 pm


binocular
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by binocular » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:25 pm

Santi253 wrote:The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.
Oh well. For someone who is completely out of touch with their own body ...
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:18 am

binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.
Oh well. For someone who is completely out of touch with their own body ...
:goodpost:
I tried to come up with a response to that post but couldn't find a clear and concise way to explain....and you have nailed it....thanks.
chownah

Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:13 am

Thank you for posting something based on medical science, rather than personal whims or whatever might be supported by the food industries.

In plain English, for those who might still be skeptical, here are the health benefits of a plant-based diet:
Weight management

Plant-based diets can increase satiety. This can prevent unhealthy overeating! So it’s no surprise that people who don’t eat meat lose more weight. They’re also usually slimmer than meat-eaters.

Diabetes prevention

The risk of diabetes is lower because plant-based diets are low in fat and sugar. The fruit and veggie intake can actually improve insulin sensitivity. Healthy weight control also helps decrease diabetes risk.

Healthy blood pressure

Eating lots of plants is linked to lower blood pressure. The fibre in whole grains and legumes can also control it by keeping cholesterol in check. In fact, eating more plants and less meat can treat hypertension.

Heart disease protection

Refined carbohydrates are either eaten minimally or not at all. This prevents rapid spikes in blood sugar; a risk factor for heart disease.4 Not eating red meat also decreases the risk of death from heart problems.

Low cancer risk

Ditching red meat is linked to a lower risk of colon cancer. Meanwhile, processed meat like cold cuts may increase breast cancer risk. But a plant-based diet can still include fish, a food that may ward off other types of cancers.

High vitamin intake

A plant-based diet is rich in fruits, vegetables, nuts, and grains. These foods treat your body to antioxidants like vitamins A, C, and E, along with minerals like magnesium and potassium. These nutrients actually play a huge part in stopping the diseases on this list.
http://www.newvision.co.ug/new_vision/n ... plant-diet
Anyone who doesn't agree with the above insights should probably research the medical literature for themselves:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/

Based on the available evidence, the idea that meats and processed foods are no more a risk factor for illnesses like diabetes and heart disease than plant-based foods is so preposterous, that I am not going to further argue about it.
binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.
Oh well. For someone who is completely out of touch with their own body ...
Instead of just making things up as we go along, or allowing listening to people like Robert Atkins telling us whatever we want to hear, perhaps we should look at the broader consensus of the medical and scientific communities, that having more plant foods and less animal products in our diet is better for our health.
Last edited by Santi253 on Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 6:18 am

The rules might be different for lay people, but I think that, based on what the Buddha taught in the Pali canon, all monastics who don't rely on alms for food should be vegetarian.

The Buddha taught that killing animals for food violates the first precept, and that monks shouldn't accept meats as alms if specifically killed on their behalf. Therefore, if monks and nuns are not dependent on alms for food, they should ideally be vegetarian.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:10 am

binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.
Oh well. For someone who is completely out of touch with their own body ...
I've lost seven pounds in the last week on a plant-based diet. And unlike on the keto or paleo diets, I am not clogging my arteries in the process. I am not starving myself. If anything, I am eating more often than I did before, but healthy foods like whole wheat pasta and tortillas, potatoes, romaine lettuce, etc. This is not for short-term weight loss, but instead for my long-term health.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:39 am

chownah wrote:
binocular wrote:
Santi253 wrote:The only way to find out if a diet prevents or reverses disease is if it's scientifically tested. If you just do it by personal trial and error, you might end up developing cancer or heart disease or diabetes in the process.
Oh well. For someone who is completely out of touch with their own body ...
:goodpost:
I tried to come up with a response to that post but couldn't find a clear and concise way to explain....and you have nailed it....thanks.
chownah
This is from The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, the nation's largest organization of food and nutrition professionals:
The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals.
https://www.andeal.org/vault/2440/web/JADA_VEG.pdf
This is from Quack Watch on the benefits of a vegetarian diet:
Leanness
Vegetarians tend to be more physically active than nonvegetarians. Higher intakes of dietary fiber may decrease absorption of food by 2-3 % and contribute to a feeling of fullness.

Lower blood pressure
Vegans, who consume a diet very low in fat, tend to have blood pressures 10 to15 mm Hg lower than nonvegetarians of similar age and gender. Much of this effect appears to be related to body weight rather than other dietary variables.

Lower serum cholesterol
Total blood cholesterol levels are lower in vegans than in lactovegetarians or nonvegetarians. Whole-fat milk products and eggs tend to raise serum blood lipids due to their saturated fat and cholesterol content. Vegetarians often use non- or lowfat milk, and vegans use no milk or eggs at all

Less colon cancer
Diets high in meat may increase the incidence of colon cancer by increasing the fecal concentration of various carcinogens. A high intake of animal fat also may increase the risk of colon cancer. It is also possible that carcinogens are produced by cooking meat at very high temperatures.
https://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthProm ... arian.html
In comparison, Quack Watch's review of the Atkins diet was overall unfavorable:
Atkins advocated his diet for more than 30 years and stated that more than 60,000 patients treated at his center had used his diet as their primary protocol. However, he never published any study in which people who used his program were monitored over a period of several years. It would not have been difficult for him to compile simple data, but I have seen no evidence that did so.

Recent studies of up to two years have found that low-carbohydrate diets can produce modest weight loss and reduction in cardiac risk factors, which means that they are safer than previously thought. However, it has not yet been determined whether such diets are safe for long-term use or can reduce the incidence of coronary heart disease.

The popularity of low-carbohydrate diets has encouraged food companies to market low-carbohydrate foods for people who want to “watch their carbs.” Most of these foods are much higher in fat than the foods they are designed to replace. I believe that “low-carb” advertising is encouraging both dieters and nondieters to eat high-fat foods, which is exactly the opposite of what medical and nutrition authorities have been urging for decades.

Following a low-carbohydrate diet under medical supervision may make sense for some people, but a population-wide increase in fat consumption would not.
https://www.quackwatch.org/06ResearchProjects/lcd.html
Quack Watch is one of America's leading debunkers of bad medical advice and pseudoscience:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quackwatch

Given the above scientific facts, having a continued debate here about this would be like arguing with a fundamentalist Christian who thinks God put dinosaur bones in the ground to test our faith in Genesis. Science does matter.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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Santi253
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by Santi253 » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:03 pm

This might bother people who are strictly vegetarian, but I am not bothered by eating foods like cheeses that might contain trace amounts of animal ingredients like enzymes. The idea of eating Jello-O, though, is now gross to me.
Non-violence is the greatest virtue, cowardice the greatest vice. - Mahatma Gandhi

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chownah
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Re: the great vegetarian debate

Post by chownah » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:08 pm

It seems to me that most of the people who are really into finding the scientific facts about various diets are usually unhealthy people. It seems to me that people who have overall really good health mostly just figure it out for themselves.
chownan

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