the great vegetarian debate

[Santi253]

Or you could try the middle-way instead of the all-or-nothing approach.

Is there a middle way when it comes to smoking cigarettes or shooting heroin? When you understand the science behind addiction, you see that there is no middle way when it comes to people who are addicted to harmful substances, including unhealthy foods.

Fast foods and processed foods are purposely designed to be as addictive as possible. Even the raw chicken you buy at the grocery store has been injected with sodium and other substances to make it more addictive:

Poultry producers have injected chicken (and other meats) with saltwater solutions since the 1970s,[3] claiming it makes for tastier, juicier meat. According to Kenneth McMillin, Professor of Meat Science at the Louisiana State University Agricultural Center in Baton Rouge, processors use multiple-needle injectors or vacuum-tumblers, that force the sodium solution into the muscle.[3] Binding agents in the solution prevent the added salt and water from leaching out of the meat during transport, in grocery stores and during cooking.[3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumping

All the essential nutrients you need can come from a plant-based diet. Not only is a plant-based diet healthier than the standard American diet, but it also has much less of an environmental cost.

If Americans reduced their meat consumption by just a fraction, how many starving people in the world be saved by eating the corn that would otherwise be fed to livestock?

There are too many places in the world where people die of preventable illness due to lack of clean water. How many gallons of water per year are wasted in the United States for the meat and dairy industries?

Some things in life are all or nothing, including in Buddhism. When it comes to the fifth precept for a Buddhist monk, it's all or nothing, because the fifth precept forbids all consumption of mind-altering intoxicants. When it comes to a food addict like myself and many other Americans, it needs to be all or nothing, to cut out the unhealthy, addictive foods entirely.

No one would try to intake a "moderate" amount of heroin if they didn't crave any heroin in the first place. There's no nutritional reason for someone who doesn't want to eat animal products and other unhealthy foods to eat any of these foods whatsoever.

Once you stop eating these unhealthy foods, and replace them with enjoyable plant foods, the desire and cravings for these unhealthy foods often goes away entirely.

[Phena]

My comment was in regards to forums and their addictive nature, although I think we can have a middle-way approach to them. But let's face it, anything can become addictive, such is the nature of craving.

I agree with what you say though in regard to substances for some people.

This is getting well off topic now.

[lostitude]

The karma for eating a meat-based diet is very simple, a person develops coronary heart disease and dies, one of many diseases linked to a meat-based diet. It's nothing magic or mysterious.

You have very extreme views. Between a 'vegetarian diet', and a 'meat-based diet', there is, I assure you, the possibility of following a balanced diet with a moderate amount of meat and a predominance of plant food.

You keep saying that excess meat consumption causes a host of diseases. This is true, but the implication here is not that one should switch to vegetarianism. The implication is that one should stop consuming meat in excess.

Likewise, all the studies you mention are about excessive meat consumption. To date, no one has ever established that a balanced, moderate omnivorous diet was inferior to a vegetarian diet in terms of health effects, because this is simply not true. It is in fact much easier to cover one's entire biological needs from an omnivorous diet than from a purely vegan diet.

[lostitude]

One of the biggest myths of the dairy industry is that milk prevents osteoporosis, when the opposite has been shown to be the case:

If dairy products are consumed in a diet high in animal protein, any potential benefit for increased bone density would be undermined. That's because animal protein, including that from dairy products, may leach more calcium from the bones than is ingested(...)

It has never been refuted that an overconsumption of animal protein, including from dairy products, leads to a loss of bone density.

It has never been refuted because it has never been established.

If you had read the study instead of limiting yourself to the extract, you would have realised that no hard and fast conclusion was drawn from the data.

I suggest you have a look at what the World Health Organization and the Food and Agriculture Organization have to say on this. The most prominent scientists from all cornvers of the globe have taken part in their studies, covering hundreds of countries over many decades. In terms of reliability, that should strike you as *maybe* a slightly more authoritative source than a university publishing some news article targeting a general audience.

Now what the WHO and the FAO have found, is that animal protein increases calcium 'leakage', so it is a fact that ingesting less animal protein lowers calcium requirements. However, given the ridiculously low protein content of milk (less than 5 grams per 100g, compare this to about 20g/100g for the average steak), it is a fallacy to claim that milk increases the risk of osteoporosis, because the effects of the calcium it brings are fare greater than the negligible effects of its 5g of proteins on calcium leakage.

[lostitude]

All the essential nutrients you need can come from a plant-based diet.

What about B12 ?

[Santi253]

It has never been refuted because it has never been established.

Numerous studies have demonstrated the numerous health problems caused by an animal-based diet, as well as the numerous health benefits of a plant-based diet.

The IGF-1 in milk and other dairy products has been linked to the growth of cancerous tumors:

The IGF signaling pathway is implicated in some cancers.[19][20] People with Laron syndrome have a lessened risk of developing cancer.[21] Dietary interventions and modifications such as vegan diets shown to downregulate IGF-1 activity, has been associated with lower risk of cancer.[22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin-l ... h_factor_1

I don't need to convince you of anything to take control of my own health. People need to make their own lifestyle decisions and take personal responsibility for the ultimate consequences.

[Santi253]

You keep saying that excess meat consumption causes a host of diseases. This is true, but the implication here is not that one should switch to vegetarianism. The implication is that one should stop consuming meat in excess.

Is there a middle way when it comes to smoking cigarettes or shooting heroin? When you understand the science behind addiction, you see that there is no middle way when it comes to people who are addicted to harmful substances, including unhealthy foods.

If I was able to eat animal products and other unhealthy foods just once in a while, maybe that would be okay, but I know myself too well. Moderation doesn't work for me.

The benefit of a plant-based diet, besides the reduced risk of many health problems, is that you don't need to worry about moderating your food consumption.

You can simply eat as many whole plant foods as it takes to feel full, and not worry about whether or not that will cause you to gain weight or have health problems. That's very refreshing for someone with an addictive personality...

Once you stop eating these unhealthy foods, and replace them with enjoyable plant foods, the desire and cravings for these unhealthy foods often goes away entirely.

[Santi253]

All the essential nutrients you need can come from a plant-based diet.

What about B12 ?

It is almost impossible for someone on a plant-based diet to develop a B12 deficiency:

Since the usual dietary source of vitamin B12 for omnivores is the flesh of other animals, the obvious conclusion is that those who choose to avoid eating meat are destined to become B12 deficient. There is a grain of truth in this concern, but in reality an otherwise healthy strict vegetarian’s risk of developing a disease from B12 deficiency by following a sensible diet is extremely rare—less than one chance in a million...

Although vitamin B12 is found in animal foods it is not synthesized by plants or animals. Only bacteria make biologically active vitamin B12—animal tissues store “bacteria-synthesized B12,” which can then be passed along the food chain by animals eating another animal’s tissues...

The human gut also contains B12-synthesizing bacteria, living from the mouth to the anus.8 The presence of these bacteria is an important reason that disease from vitamin B12 deficiency occurs very rarely in people, even those who have been strict vegetarians (vegans) all of their lives...

On average, for someone raised on the Western diet, about 2 to 5 milligrams of B12 are stored, mostly in the liver. This means most people have at least a three year reserve of this vital nutrient. Conservation of B12 by the body boosts the time this supply lasts by 10-fold. After excretion through the bile into the intestines most of the B12 is reabsorbed by the ileum for future use. As a result of this recirculation it actually takes, on average, 20 to 30 years to become deficient after becoming a strict vegan. That is if no vitamin B12 were consumed—which is impossible, even on a strict vegan diet, because of bacterial sources of B12 from the person’s bowel, contaminated vegetable foods, and the environment.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm

[lostitude]

The IGF-1 in milk and other dairy products has been linked to numerous health problems, including accelerating the growth of cancerous tumors.

The IGF signaling pathway is implicated in some cancers.[19][20] People with Laron syndrome have a lessened risk of developing cancer.[21] Dietary interventions and modifications such as vegan diets shown to downregulate IGF-1 activity, has been associated with lower risk of cancer.[22]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insulin-l ... h_factor_1

Cherry-picking... This Wikipedia paragraph refers to one study dating back to 1999, which simply suggests a correlation between cancer and vegan diets.
What is lacking here is:
-the causal link between high IGF-1 circulating levels and cancer has not been established. In fact it has even been contradicted by a number of studies.
See for example this 2012 study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22106399
It found a negative correlation between IGF-1 and the incidence of cancer.
-the causal link between IGF-1 intake and circulating levels is not clear at all. According to some studies, IGF-1 intake *might* account for about 0,1% to 0,4% of circulating IGF-1, the rest being naturally produced by the body.

Current research indicates that circulating levels of IGF-1 *may* be associated with total aminoacid intake, rather than specifically animal food consumption. A study has even concluded that IGF-1 levels were raised more significantly by soy protein intake than by milk protein intake (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12221217).

[Santi253]

Cherry-picking. This Wikipedia paragraph refers to one study dating back to 1999...

Numerous studies have demonstrated the numerous health problems caused by an animal-based diet, as well as the numerous health benefits of a plant-based diet...

I don't need to convince you of anything to take control of my own health. People need to make their own lifestyle decisions and take personal responsibility for the ultimate consequences.

I am sincerely sorry if I come off as disrespectful in stating something that should already be obvious.

[lostitude]

It is almost impossible for someone on a plant-based diet to develop a B12 deficiency:

Since the usual dietary source of vitamin B12 for omnivores is the flesh of other animals, the obvious conclusion is that those who choose to avoid eating meat are destined to become B12 deficient. There is a grain of truth in this concern, but in reality an otherwise healthy strict vegetarian’s risk of developing a disease from B12 deficiency by following a sensible diet is extremely rare—less than one chance in a million...

Although vitamin B12 is found in animal foods it is not synthesized by plants or animals. Only bacteria make biologically active vitamin B12—animal tissues store “bacteria-synthesized B12,” which can then be passed along the food chain by animals eating another animal’s tissues...

The human gut also contains B12-synthesizing bacteria, living from the mouth to the anus.8 The presence of these bacteria is an important reason that disease from vitamin B12 deficiency occurs very rarely in people, even those who have been strict vegetarians (vegans) all of their lives...

On average, for someone raised on the Western diet, about 2 to 5 milligrams of B12 are stored, mostly in the liver. This means most people have at least a three year reserve of this vital nutrient. Conservation of B12 by the body boosts the time this supply lasts by 10-fold. After excretion through the bile into the intestines most of the B12 is reabsorbed by the ileum for future use. As a result of this recirculation it actually takes, on average, 20 to 30 years to become deficient after becoming a strict vegan. That is if no vitamin B12 were consumed—which is impossible, even on a strict vegan diet, because of bacterial sources of B12 from the person’s bowel, contaminated vegetable foods, and the environment.
https://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm

I am sorry but this is an appalling instance of quackery. Just google 'vitamin B12 deficiency' and you will find hundreds of articles discussing clinical cases of B12-deficient patients, some of whom are not even vegan or vegetarian. This guy claims to be a doctor and basically says that B12 deficiency doesn't exist? Wow. But do buy his books and his DVD as he tells you to do in the concluding paragraph of this link, since as you said, we're all free to make up our minds.

Regarding B12 absorption from gut bacteria, the author quotes one study dating back to 1980 which only tentatively said they identified two bacterial species in the gut that *might* produce significant amounts of B12. Those results were refuted by later studies.
See here for example: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4260394/

In humans, cobalamin limitation can result from both uptake disorders (including pernicious anemia, an autoimmune loss of intrinsic factor responsible for uptake of cobalamin that is fatal if untreated) as well as dietary deficiencies (Stabler and Allen, 2004). The physiologic and neurologic consequences of cobalamin limitation and cobalamin trafficking disorders have been discussed in numerous excellent reviews (Alpers and Russell-Jones, 2013; Gherasim et al., 2013; Rosenblatt and Fenton, 1999).
Although corrinoids are abundant in the large intestine due to the activity of the gut microbiota, multiple factors prevent humans from acquiring significant levels of cobalamin from this source. First, cobalamin produced by gut microbes represents less than 2% of the total corrinoid content in feces (Allen and Stabler, 2008). Further, cobalamin produced in the colon, where microbial numbers are highest, is not bioavailable because the receptors necessary for absorbing the vitamin are found in the small intestine, upstream of the site of corrinoid production (Seetharam and Alpers, 1982).

And here is a study about B12-deficient Southern Indian women, because they are vegan: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23344013

[lostitude]

Cherry-picking. This Wikipedia paragraph refers to one study dating back to 1999...

Numerous studies have demonstrated the numerous health problems caused by an animal-based diet, as well as the numerous health benefits of a plant-based diet...

I don't need to convince you of anything to take control of my own health. People need to make their own lifestyle decisions and take personal responsibility for the ultimate consequences.

I am sincerely sorry if I come off as disrespectful in stating something that should already be obvious.

You don't need to convince me, but please stop disseminating false information and propaganda material.
You can't say we shouldn't question you because you're free to do what you want, and at the same time post all sorts of unreliable statements from dubious sources and expect that no one will react.

[Justsit]

All the essential nutrients you need can come from a plant-based diet.

What about B12 ?

It is almost impossible for someone on a plant-based diet to develop a B12 deficiency:

Hogwash. McDougall is a quack.
Do some more research using authoritative sources.

[seeker242]

McDougall recommends B12 supplements...

phpBB .

[DNS]

McDougall recommends B12 supplements...

That's good that McDougall is now recommending b12 supplements. I heard him at a talk in Denver back in the 1990s and he was against all supplements, all oils, except flax oil. A vegan diet provides all the nutrition one needs from protein, iron, etc as long as it is a healthy vegan diet. The only caveat is the b12, but with supplements with b12 or a multi-vitamin, then there would be no deficiency.

Or alternatively if someone is mostly vegan but eats lacto-ovo vegetarian occasionally then that would be more than enough b12 in those animal products. The amount of b12 needed is measured in micro-grams.